I do feel the tone of my last post was more dismissive about the use of decans in Tarot than I perhaps intended.

The fact that an astrologer and Tarot authority like Anthony Louis does work with the GD system of decans for the Tarot does make me think this deserves a second look.

Here is an interesting post from his blog entitled: Using Tarot to Delineate the Ascendant

http://tonylouis.wordpress.com/page/3/? ... -type=cats

You will need to scroll down the page to find that piece.

Its taken from his new book Tarot Beyond the Basics which look very interesting.

Mark

Mark wrote:Looking at the decans and Tarot in a pedantic sense there is no precise correlation between these two systems. There are 36 decans but 40 numbered or pip cards in the Tarot -22 Trump cards, 16 Court cards and 40 pip cards=78.

While I do use astrological symbolism for the 4 suits, court cards and trumps I find numerology a more useful basis in deriving the pip card meanings myself. The attempt to fit the pip cards to the decans has always looked quite artificial to me. To make it work you either need to drop out the aces from consideration (leaving 36 numbered cards). The logic here is that the Ace is assumed to contain the essence of the elemental nature of the suit before differentiation. Alternatively, you can use all 40 cards but accept a mixed decanic influence for each pip card. Personally, I dont find either approach that convincing but its an interesting topic nonetheless. Certainly, some modern Tarot readers still follow the Golden Dawn/BOTA approach and therefore link the Tarot to the decans in this way.

Yes, the system indeed looks somewhat arbitrary at first. However, I have made several observations which I can't all go into right now - but one thing worth mentioning is that by leaving out the Aces (the "Ones") and attributing the pip cards 2-4, 5-7, and 8-10 to the cardinal, fixed and mutable sign of their corresponding element, you end up with series from 1 through 9, because numerologically, the number 10 can be considered as 1+0, thus reduced to 1. Moreover, in this manner, you get four continuous series of 1 through 9 all around the zodiac, even though in this case, the suit/element changes.

Since each of these four series begins with a Ten of one of the suits/elements, continues with Two, Three, Four of the subsequent suit/element, then with the Five, Six, Seven of the next suit/element, and finishes with the Eight and Nine of the last element, the series touches each of the four elements.

This also helps to explain the otherwise puzzling fact that the twelve court cards (leaving out the Princesses which belong to the quadrants) are not connected with the twelve signs on a 1:1 base in the GD system; rather, each of them covers the last decan of one sign, followed by two decans of the next sign.
But this way, three subsequent court cards cover one such series of pip cards from 10 = 1 through 9.

More comments to follow later, but feel free to beat me to it.

Hi Michael,

We had a very interesting discussion on the Astrological Associations of the Tarot last year looking into many historical issues.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

However, as that discussion focused largely on the Major Arcana I think it makes sense to revisit this thread for a discussion on the pip & Court cards. Although, I was initially, a bit sceptical of this decanic approach I have become increasingly more intrigued by it. Not least as it seems to have influenced many (though by no means all) of Waite /Smith pictorial representations of the Tarot. When you consider just how influential RWS imagery has been on modern Tarot card interpretations of the pips the issue grows in significance.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Yes, the system indeed looks somewhat arbitrary at first. However, I have made several observations which I can't all go into right now - but one thing worth mentioning is that by leaving out the Aces (the "Ones") and attributing the pip cards 2-4, 5-7, and 8-10 to the cardinal, fixed and mutable sign of their corresponding element, you end up with series from 1 through 9, because numerologically, the number 10 can be considered as 1+0, thus reduced to 1. Moreover, in this manner, you get four continuous series of 1 through 9 all around the zodiac, even though in this case, the suit/element changes.

That subdivision of each suit explains a lot. I was previously mystified why the order of decans didn't seem to follow the natural sequence of zodiac in the Pentacles (Earth) and Swords (Air). On that basis the planetary decanic associations would start with Taurus in Pentacles (rather than the GD Capricorn) , and Gemini in Air (rather than the GD Libra). That alternative to the GD approach looks quite intriguing for the cards I have explored.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Since each of these four series begins with a Ten of one of the suits/elements, continues with Two, Three, Four of the subsequent suit/element, then with the Five, Six, Seven of the next suit/element, and finishes with the Eight and Nine of the last element, the series touches each of the four elements.

Perhaps I have misunderstood you but you seem to be saying the the sequence begins with a 10 from one suit and proceedes to a different element. I had assumed a whole sign approach! I had been relying on Paul Huson's description of the GD decanic association to each pip card. Huson seems to locate the 10 of each suit in the GD system to the same element. Hence the 10 of Swords is still linked to Air (Gemini) (like the 8, & 9). In summary:

Wands
2 of Wands Aries/Mars
3 of Wands Aries/Sun
4 of Wands Aries/Venus
5 of Wands Leo/Saturn
6 of Wands Leo/Jupiter
7 of Wands Leo/Mars
8 of Wands Sagittarius/Mercury
9 of Wands Sagittarius/ Moon
10 of Wands Sagittarius/Saturn

Pentacles
2 of Pentacles Capricorn/Jupiter
3 of Pentacles Capricorn/Mars
4 of Pentacles Capricorn/Sun
5 of Pentacles Taurus/Mercury
6 of Pentacles Taurus/Moon
7 of Pentacles Taurus/Saturn
8 of Pentacles Virgo/Sun
9 of Pentacles Virgo/Venus
10 of Pentacles Virgo/Mercury

Swords
2 of Swords Libra/Moon
3 of Swords Libra/Saturn
4 of Swords Libra/Jupiter
5 of Swords Aquarius/Venus
6 of Swords Aquarius/Mercury
7 of Swords Aquarius/Moon
8 of Swords Gemini/Jupiter
9 of Swords Gemini/Mars
10 of Swords Gemini/ Sun

Cups
2 of Cups Cancer/Venus
3 of Cups Cancer/Mercury
4 of Cups Cancer/Moon
5 of Cups Scorpio/Mars
6 of Cups Scorpio/Sun
7 of Cups Scorpio/Venus
8 of Cups Pisces/Saturn
9 of Cups Pisces/Jupiter
10 of Cups Pisces/Mars


The alternative (non GD) system I suggested for the Pentacles and Swords would be as follows:

Pentacles
2 of Pentacles Mercury in Taurus
3 of Pentacles Moon in Taurus
4 of Pentacles Saturn in Taurus
5 of Pentacles Sun in Virgo
6 of Pentacles Venus in Virgo
7 of Pentacles Mercury in Virgo
8 of Pentacles Jupiter in Capricorn
9 of Pentacles Mars in Capricorn
10 of Pentacles Sun in Capricorn

Air
2 of Swords Jupiter in Gemini
3 of Swords Mars in Gemini
4 of Swords Sun in Gemini
5 of Swords Moon in Libra
6 of Swords Saturn in Libra
7 of Swords Jupiter in Libra
8 of Swords Venus in Aquarius
9 of Swords Mercury in Aquarius
10 of Swords Moon in Aquarius


Its interesting to examine the RWS and examine how closely (or far) he moved from the decanic images and or planetary associations. Some of the decanic associations seem radically different from Waite/Smiths representation.

However, I dont think the decans were the only considerations. We also have pythagorean numerology. From what I can establish looking at many of the RWS cards there are the following planetary associations:

Aces=1=Sun
2=Moon
3=Jupiter
4=Saturn
5=Mars
6=Venus
7=Mercury

Although, I appreciate looking at the Golden Dawn's attributions for the planetary numbers on the Tree of Life the associations are often different.

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/T ... :Astrology

This also helps to explain the otherwise puzzling fact that the twelve court cards (leaving out the Princesses which belong to the quadrants) are not connected with the twelve signs on a 1:1 base in the GD system; rather, each of them covers the last decan of one sign, followed by two decans of the next sign.

Yes as I understand it the GD approach the Court cards were not purely in one sign. From what I have read elsewhere:

Queen of Wands ? 20 degrees Pisces to 20 degrees Aries
Knight of Pentacles ? 20 degrees Aries to 20 degrees Taurus
King of Swords ? 20 degrees Taurus to 20 degrees Gemini
Queen of Cups ? 20 degrees Gemini to 20 degrees Cancer
Knight of Wands ? 20 degrees Cancer to 20 degrees Leo
King of Pentacles ? 20 degrees Leo to 20 degrees Virgo
Queen of Swords ? 20 degrees Virgo to 20 degrees Libra
Knight of Cups ? 20 degrees Libra to 20 degrees Scorpio
King of Wands ? 20 degrees Scorpio to 20 degrees Sagittarius
Queen of Pentacles ? 20 degrees Sagittarius to 20 degrees Capricorn
Knight of Swords ? 20 degrees Capricorn to 20 degrees Aquarius
King of Cups ? 20 degrees Aquarius to 20 degrees Pisces

Mark

Hi Mark,

Mark wrote:Hi Michael,

We had a very interesting discussion on the Astrological Associations of the Tarot last year looking into many historical issues.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

I'm happy to resume our discussion of this important topic.

However, as that discussion focused largely on the Major Arcana I think it makes sense to revisit this thread for a discussion on the pip & Court cards. Although, I was initially, a bit sceptical of this decanic approach I have become increasingly more intrigued by it. Not least as it seems to have influenced many (though by no means all) of Waite /Smith pictorial representations of the Tarot. When you consider just how influential RWS imagery has been on modern Tarot card interpretations of the pips the issue grows in significance.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Yes, the system indeed looks somewhat arbitrary at first. However, I have made several observations which I can't all go into right now - but one thing worth mentioning is that by leaving out the Aces (the "Ones") and attributing the pip cards 2-4, 5-7, and 8-10 to the cardinal, fixed and mutable sign of their corresponding element, you end up with series from 1 through 9, because numerologically, the number 10 can be considered as 1+0, thus reduced to 1. Moreover, in this manner, you get four continuous series of 1 through 9 all around the zodiac, even though in this case, the suit/element changes.

That subdivision of each suit explains a lot. I was previously mystified why the order of decans didn't seem to follow the natural sequence of zodiac in the Pentacles (Earth) and Swords (Air). On that basis the planetary decanic associations would start with Taurus in Pentacles (rather than the GD Capricorn) , and Gemini in Air (rather than the GD Libra). That alternative to the GD approach looks quite intriguing for the cards I have explored.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Since each of these four series begins with a Ten of one of the suits/elements, continues with Two, Three, Four of the subsequent suit/element, then with the Five, Six, Seven of the next suit/element, and finishes with the Eight and Nine of the last element, the series touches each of the four elements.

Perhaps I have misunderstood you but you seem to be saying the the sequence begins with a 10 from one suit and proceedes to a different element. I had assumed a whole sign approach! I had been relying on Paul Huson's description of the GD decanic association to each pip card. Huson seems to locate the 10 of each suit in the GD system to the same element. Hence the 10 of Swords is still linked to Air (Gemini) (like the 8, & 9).

I agree with that. The paragraphs following below should clarify what I meant.

In summary:

Wands
2 of Wands Aries/Mars
3 of Wands Aries/Sun
4 of Wands Aries/Venus
5 of Wands Leo/Saturn
6 of Wands Leo/Jupiter
7 of Wands Leo/Mars
8 of Wands Sagittarius/Mercury
9 of Wands Sagittarius/ Moon
10 of Wands Sagittarius/Saturn

Pentacles
2 of Pentacles Capricorn/Jupiter
3 of Pentacles Capricorn/Mars
4 of Pentacles Capricorn/Sun
5 of Pentacles Taurus/Mercury
6 of Pentacles Taurus/Moon
7 of Pentacles Taurus/Saturn
8 of Pentacles Virgo/Sun
9 of Pentacles Virgo/Venus
10 of Pentacles Virgo/Mercury

Swords
2 of Swords Libra/Moon
3 of Swords Libra/Saturn
4 of Swords Libra/Jupiter
5 of Swords Aquarius/Venus
6 of Swords Aquarius/Mercury
7 of Swords Aquarius/Moon
8 of Swords Gemini/Jupiter
9 of Swords Gemini/Mars
10 of Swords Gemini/ Sun

Cups
2 of Cups Cancer/Venus
3 of Cups Cancer/Mercury
4 of Cups Cancer/Moon
5 of Cups Scorpio/Mars
6 of Cups Scorpio/Sun
7 of Cups Scorpio/Venus
8 of Cups Pisces/Saturn
9 of Cups Pisces/Jupiter
10 of Cups Pisces/Mars


The alternative (non GD) system I suggested for the Pentacles and Swords would be as follows:

Pentacles
2 of Pentacles Mercury in Taurus
3 of Pentacles Moon in Taurus
4 of Pentacles Saturn in Taurus
5 of Pentacles Sun in Virgo
6 of Pentacles Venus in Virgo
7 of Pentacles Mercury in Virgo
8 of Pentacles Jupiter in Capricorn
9 of Pentacles Mars in Capricorn
10 of Pentacles Sun in Capricorn

Air
2 of Swords Jupiter in Gemini
3 of Swords Mars in Gemini
4 of Swords Sun in Gemini
5 of Swords Moon in Libra
6 of Swords Saturn in Libra
7 of Swords Jupiter in Libra
8 of Swords Venus in Aquarius
9 of Swords Mercury in Aquarius
10 of Swords Moon in Aquarius

However, this alternative order does not retain a numerical sequence the way the GD system does. For instance, after the 4 of Wands (third decan of Aries) follows the 5 of Pentacles (first decan of Taurus) in GD, whereas in your alternative system, the 2 of Pentacles takes its place.

Also, note that in the GD system, the 2s, 3s, and 4s always belong to a cardinal sign, the 5s, 6s and 7s to a fixed sign, the 8s, 9s and 10s to a mutable sign - a numerical consistency that reflects the zodiacal order in a different fashion.

Its interesting to examine the RWS and examine how closely (or far) he moved from the decanic images and or planetary associations. Some of the decanic associations seem radically different from Waite/Smiths representation.

The one book to read on the traditional decanic imagery and how it relates to the RWS and Thoth decks was recommended to me by ea in an earlier post on this thread:

http://austincoppock.com/shop/36-faces/

An outstanding book, get it while you can.

I also recommend the Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal, a beautiful Thoth like deck that uses decanic imagery from classical texts of astrology and astral magic.

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/li ... s-eternal/

However, I dont think the decans were the only considerations. We also have pythagorean numerology. From what I can establish looking at many of the RWS cards there are the following planetary associations:

Aces=1=Sun
2=Moon
3=Jupiter
4=Saturn
5=Mars
6=Venus
7=Mercury

So this is a conclusion based on your own research?

Although, I appreciate looking at the Golden Dawn's attributions for the planetary numbers on the Tree of Life the associations are often different.

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/T ... :Astrology

Yes, this is a commonly made additional attribution, i.e. in the Book of Thoth, where the association of a pip card with a number/sephira implies an association with the planet that belongs to it.

You are probably aware that there are many ways to connect numbers and planets. That would be a topic worthy of a thread of its own.

This also helps to explain the otherwise puzzling fact that the twelve court cards (leaving out the Princesses which belong to the quadrants) are not connected with the twelve signs on a 1:1 base in the GD system; rather, each of them covers the last decan of one sign, followed by two decans of the next sign.

Yes as I understand it the GD approach the Court cards were not purely in one sign. From what I have read elsewhere:

Queen of Wands ? 20 degrees Pisces to 20 degrees Aries
Knight of Pentacles ? 20 degrees Aries to 20 degrees Taurus
King of Swords ? 20 degrees Taurus to 20 degrees Gemini
Queen of Cups ? 20 degrees Gemini to 20 degrees Cancer
Knight of Wands ? 20 degrees Cancer to 20 degrees Leo
King of Pentacles ? 20 degrees Leo to 20 degrees Virgo
Queen of Swords ? 20 degrees Virgo to 20 degrees Libra
Knight of Cups ? 20 degrees Libra to 20 degrees Scorpio
King of Wands ? 20 degrees Scorpio to 20 degrees Sagittarius
Queen of Pentacles ? 20 degrees Sagittarius to 20 degrees Capricorn
Knight of Swords ? 20 degrees Capricorn to 20 degrees Aquarius
King of Cups ? 20 degrees Aquarius to 20 degrees Pisces

Mark

The diagram I reproduced in my previous post shows this too. A question somebody on another forum asked me about this shift between court cards and signs led me make those numerological considerations that you referred to. Reading the 10s as 1s (in lieu of the Aces) results in a 1 through 9 series (rather than 2 through 10) that coincides with a series of three court cards. Moreover, once again note that this system allows these three court cards to cover the four elements overall.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate you have a considerable amount of knowledge on this issue.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

However, this alternative order does not retain a numerical sequence the way the GD system does. For instance, after the 4 of Wands (third decan of Aries) follows the 5 of Pentacles (first decan of Taurus) in GD, whereas in your alternative system, the 2 of Pentacles takes its place.

Also, note that in the GD system, the 2s, 3s, and 4s always belong to a cardinal sign, the 5s, 6s and 7s to a fixed sign, the 8s, 9s and 10s to a mutable sign - a numerical consistency that reflects the zodiacal order in a different fashion.

I cant help feeling your argument is a bit circular here. You clearly like the logic of the GD position which divides each element/suit into cardinal/fixed and mutable. Fair enough. I have no problem with that. But you seem to be suggesting because the alternative order doesn't follow your favoured system it is less logical. I dont agree.

All I am saying is that there is also some astrological logic for following the actual order of the decans by sign in the zodiac. Hence if we had a planet at say the end of Aries in the decan of Saturn the next decan it would enter would be the first decan of Taurus ruled by Mercury. I am not saying this is objectively more 'correct' than the GD system but it isn't as muddled as you seem to be suggesting. Then again I am not tied to firm belief in the validity of all GD methods so I naturally approach this topic with an exploratory, inquiring mind.


Mark wrote:

However, I dont think the decans were the only considerations. We also have pythagorean numerology. From what I can establish looking at many of the RWS cards there are the following planetary associations:

Aces=1=Sun
2=Moon
3=Jupiter
4=Saturn
5=Mars
6=Venus
7=Mercury

Michael Sternbach wrote:

So this is a conclusion based on your own research?

Well its certainly not a conclusion Michael! More of a tentative working hypothesis. I got some ideas from Anthony Louis in his Book Tarot: Plain and Simple regarding the numerology association of the planets.

Louis gives:

1 Sun
2 Moon
3 Jupiter
4 Uranus
5 Mercury
6 Venus
7 Neptune
8 Saturn

However, I dont accept some of his planetary attributions

The chapter is too long to quote here but here is a web link summarising his ideas:

http://accessnewage.com/articles/Tarot/Tarot3.htm

I find his attribution of 4 to Uranus as quite bizarre as all the associations he gives for 4 are very Saturnian. Its an argument whether to attribute 5 to Mercury or Mars. I see it as a period of crisis and readjustment in between the stability of the 4 and the renewed harmony of the 6. I tend to rely on Pythgorean number theory and astrological aspects division of the zodiac.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

You are probably aware that there are many ways to connect numbers and planets. That would be a topic worthy of a thread of its own.

Yes I agree. Lets do that!

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Reading the 10s as 1s (in lieu of the Aces) results in a 1 through 9 series (rather than 2 through 10) that coincides with a series of three court cards. Moreover, once again note that this system allows these three court cards to cover the four elements overall.

So is this your theory or one you can source to the GD? I must say it sounds quite counter-intuitive and too convoluted to me. But then I use whole sign associations for each court card (excluding the pages). I have found this very effective in readings.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

The one book to read on the traditional decanic imagery and how it relates to the RWS and Thoth decks was recommended to me by ea in an earlier post on this thread:

http://austincoppock.com/shop/36-faces/

An outstanding book, get it while you can.

Yes I have spotted it, It looks a must have on the topic. But frankly my financial state is a bit like the 5 of Pentacles/Coins just now so book buying is sadly a luxury I cannot afford at present.

Mark

Mark wrote:Hi Michael,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

You are welcome. I enjoy talking about the topic with you, I just don't always have time for it right away.

I appreciate you have a considerable amount of knowledge on this issue.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

However, this alternative order does not retain a numerical sequence the way the GD system does. For instance, after the 4 of Wands (third decan of Aries) follows the 5 of Pentacles (first decan of Taurus) in GD, whereas in your alternative system, the 2 of Pentacles takes its place.

Also, note that in the GD system, the 2s, 3s, and 4s always belong to a cardinal sign, the 5s, 6s and 7s to a fixed sign, the 8s, 9s and 10s to a mutable sign - a numerical consistency that reflects the zodiacal order in a different fashion.

I cant help feeling your argument is a bit circular here. You clearly like the logic of the GD position which divides each element/suit into cardinal/fixed and mutable. Fair enough. I have no problem with that. But you seem to be suggesting because the alternative order doesn't follow your favoured system it is less logical. I dont agree.

All I am saying is that there is also some astrological logic for following the actual order of the decans by sign in the zodiac. Hence if we had a planet at say the end of Aries in the decan of Saturn the next decan it would enter would be the first decan of Taurus ruled by Mercury. I am not saying this is objectively more 'correct' than the GD system but it isn't as muddled as you seem to be suggesting.

No, I didn't mean to say that your system is muddled. It's just another way of looking at things, logical in its own right. Much like there are a couple of different ways to look at the decans anyway.

Then again I am not tied to firm belief in the validity of all GD methods so I naturally approach this topic with an exploratory, inquiring mind.

Actually, I don't have blind faith in the GD system either (or any other that is not of my own making - and even then I take it with a grain of salt). However, the more I study the GD, the more I find that what seemed counter-intuitive at first actually makes sense. I certainly commend your critical, yet inquiring attitude.

Mark wrote:

However, I dont think the decans were the only considerations. We also have pythagorean numerology. From what I can establish looking at many of the RWS cards there are the following planetary associations:

Aces=1=Sun
2=Moon
3=Jupiter
4=Saturn
5=Mars
6=Venus
7=Mercury

Michael Sternbach wrote:

So this is a conclusion based on your own research?

Well its certainly not a conclusion Michael! More of a tentative working hypothesis. I got some ideas from Anthony Louis in his Book Tarot: Plain and Simple regarding the numerology association of the planets.

Louis gives:

1 Sun
2 Moon
3 Jupiter
4 Uranus
5 Mercury
6 Venus
7 Neptune
8 Saturn

However, I dont accept some of his planetary attributions

The chapter is too long to quote here but here is a web link summarising his ideas:

http://accessnewage.com/articles/Tarot/Tarot3.htm

I find his attribution of 4 to Uranus as quite bizarre as all the associations he gives for 4 are very Saturnian. Its an argument whether to attribute 5 to Mercury or Mars. I see it as a period of crisis and readjustment in between the stability of the 4 and the renewed harmony of the 6. I tend to rely on Pythgorean number theory and astrological aspects division of the zodiac.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

You are probably aware that there are many ways to connect numbers and planets. That would be a topic worthy of a thread of its own.

Yes I agree. Lets do that!

I will do so as I see fit. But if you happen to beat me to it, that's alright.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Reading the 10s as 1s (in lieu of the Aces) results in a 1 through 9 series (rather than 2 through 10) that coincides with a series of three court cards. Moreover, once again note that this system allows these three court cards to cover the four elements overall.

So is this your theory or one you can source to the GD? I must say it sounds quite counter-intuitive and too convoluted to me. But then I use whole sign associations for each court card (excluding the pages). I have found this very effective in readings.

It's my own theory - the best explanation that I could come up with so far. The Golden Dawn explanation for the Courts being ruled by two signs each is that they are closer to manifestation, thus appear somewhat "muddled". That doesn't satisfy me though.

Michael Sternbach wrote:

The one book to read on the traditional decanic imagery and how it relates to the RWS and Thoth decks was recommended to me by ea in an earlier post on this thread:

http://austincoppock.com/shop/36-faces/

An outstanding book, get it while you can.

Yes I have spotted it, It looks a must have on the topic. But frankly my financial state is a bit like the 5 of Pentacles/Coins just now so book buying is sadly a luxury I cannot afford at present.

Mark

My seriously meant advice: Do a spread with intentionally chosen cards that reflect your way to a more satisfactory state of financial affairs. It's called Tarot Magic. The cards can be used both as "receivers" and as "senders".