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AstroNovice
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:58 am Post subject: 7th house and foreign travel |
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has anybody personally observed the 7th house having some sort of connection to foreign travel? I mean I don't doubt that the concept is valid at all, I guess its just hard for me to accept foreign travel being in the domain of the 7th house after having accepted foreign travel as a 9th house matter for so long. Also, surely there must be some sort of qualitative difference between 9th house foreign travel and 7th house foreign travel?
For me personally I have seen a couple of charts (both natal and solar return) where 7th house placements corresponded with people going on foreign travels/or at least heavily desiring to, but the sample size is too small, so I was hoping somebody else could maybe confirm or deny my observations. |
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Ben
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 167
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Actually, the 7th is treated as the destination of foreign travel in al-Kindi and Hephaistion of Thebes, both of whom would have gotten it from Dorotheus (Carmen V.21), so you are in good company in seeing it in a chart! The idea is that the Ascendant represents home, while the 7th is as far away as you can get.
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ea
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Ben wrote: |
Actually, the 7th is treated as the destination of foreign travel in al-Kindi and Hephaistion of Thebes, both of whom would have gotten it from Dorotheus (Carmen V.21), so you are in good company in seeing it in a chart! The idea is that the Ascendant represents home, while the 7th is as far away as you can get. |
There are different kinds of foreign travel, I think. If you are forced to go abroad for different reasons, as a refugee for example, is one thing, and if you are going on a holiday to a foreign country is quite another thing. I have often wondered to what extent foreign travel in traditional texts refer to the first kind where you are forced abroad. This kind of travel could belong to the 7th house. If on the other hand you are going abroad on a holiday just to enjoy yourself is quite a different kind of travel. Should this kind of travel rather belong to the 5th house? Then again if you are travelling abroad in order to learn something about the country you are going to could belong to the 9th house.
Just a thought.
ea |
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AstroNovice
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ea wrote: | | Ben wrote: |
Actually, the 7th is treated as the destination of foreign travel in al-Kindi and Hephaistion of Thebes, both of whom would have gotten it from Dorotheus (Carmen V.21), so you are in good company in seeing it in a chart! The idea is that the Ascendant represents home, while the 7th is as far away as you can get. |
There are different kinds of foreign travel, I think. If you are forced to go abroad for different reasons, as a refugee for example, is one thing, and if you are going on a holiday to a foreign country is quite another thing. I have often wondered to what extent foreign travel in traditional texts refer to the first kind where you are forced abroad. This kind of travel could belong to the 7th house. If on the other hand you are going abroad on a holiday just to enjoy yourself is quite a different kind of travel. Should this kind of travel rather belong to the 5th house? Then again if you are travelling abroad in order to learn something about the country you are going to could belong to the 9th house.
Just a thought.
ea |
I believe that the 12th house is for forced foreign travel, like if you are a refugee. At least this is what they believe in vedic astrology |
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AstroNovice
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben wrote: | Hi,
Actually, the 7th is treated as the destination of foreign travel in al-Kindi and Hephaistion of Thebes, both of whom would have gotten it from Dorotheus (Carmen V.21), so you are in good company in seeing it in a chart! The idea is that the Ascendant represents home, while the 7th is as far away as you can get. |
thanks for your input ben  |
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Larxene
Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:54 am Post subject: |
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It is unsurprising, actually. If you read the article "Facets of Fate" by Robert Schmidt, you'll see that he mentioned at least four houses (iirc) in connection with foreign travel: 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th. Similarly, for the topic of children, there are several houses, namely: 4th, 5th, 10th, 11th. We also have several houses for evaluating the topic of partners (or wives); I think it's 4th, 7th, and 10th. Even for death, we have the 8th, 7th and 4th. For illness/injuries, the 6th and 12th. And so on.
These associations apparently came from the Hellenistic texts.
So...well, there isn't just one house for each topic. This makes things more complicated, but I believe that if we strive to understand the specific qualities of each house associated with the same topic, we can give a richer reading to clients and friends. On one hand, we have complications, but on the other, we have flavour. It's a give and take.
Indeed, the quality or "kind" of travel is different with different houses. Schmidt explained some of the differences in his article.
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AstroNovice
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Larxene wrote: | It is unsurprising, actually. If you read the article "Facets of Fate" by Robert Schmidt, you'll see that he mentioned at least four houses (iirc) in connection with foreign travel: 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th. Similarly, for the topic of children, there are several houses, namely: 4th, 5th, 10th, 11th. We also have several houses for evaluating the topic of partners (or wives); I think it's 4th, 7th, and 10th. Even for death, we have the 8th, 7th and 4th. For illness/injuries, the 6th and 12th. And so on.
These associations apparently came from the Hellenistic texts.
So...well, there isn't just one house for each topic. This makes things more complicated, but I believe that if we strive to understand the specific qualities of each house associated with the same topic, we can give a richer reading to clients and friends. On one hand, we have complications, but on the other, we have flavour. It's a give and take.
Indeed, the quality or "kind" of travel is different with different houses. Schmidt explained some of the differences in his article. |
thanks larxene, that was an excellent article and cleared up a few things for me. |
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ea
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Larxene wrote: | It is unsurprising, actually. If you read the article "Facets of Fate" by Robert Schmidt, you'll see that he mentioned at least four houses (iirc) in connection with foreign travel: 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th.
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Thank you, Larxene. Now that you mention it I remember having read that too. It does make sense, even if chart reading is more complex with several houses indicating the same thing. I'll try to get hold of this article by Robert Schmidt. It sounds very helpful.
ea |
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Larxene
Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:05 am Post subject: |
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You're welcome, AstroNovice and ea.
A large part of the significations seem to be based on the diurnal and planetary motions.
I only vaguely remember the distinction between the houses of travel. The 12th signifies perilous journeys where there is a possibility of dying or receiving life-threatening injuries. The 6th signifies a similarly dangerous journey, but one that at most leads to injuries that are not life-threatening. The 9th seems to be about journeys to find guidance in life, or journeys on the order of one's king or superior. I forgot what the 3rd signifies.
The distinction between the houses of children is intriguing too; however, their effects seem to be non-stacking, just like the houses of travel. So it is not as easy to count the number of children when taking into account all houses...cuz you can't just add the testimonies and divide them.
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ea
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Larxene wrote: |
I only vaguely remember the distinction between the houses of travel. The 12th signifies perilous journeys where there is a possibility of dying or receiving life-threatening injuries. The 6th signifies a similarly dangerous journey, but one that at most leads to injuries that are not life-threatening. The 9th seems to be about journeys to find guidance in life, or journeys on the order of one's king or superior. I forgot what the 3rd signifies.
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Thank you for elaborating, Larxene. One problem here with the 6th and the 12th houses though is that you don't necessarily have to go on a journey to get injured or sick  .
ea |
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Paul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: |
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The way I understand it is that all the cadent places indicate a moving away from the situation or the places of activity - so all the cadent places suggest something away from centre stage. So the cadent houses represent any kind of travel or movement like that. In particular 3 and 9, with aspects to to the ascendant, represent this idea of travel.
However the 7th, rather than being travel itself per se, represents the place opposite to what you know or opposite to the current situation. So can be the destination that one travels to, or could be the 'other' place.
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Fleur
Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 839
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| If you mean whether transiting planets in the seventh house relate to foreign travel, maybe this is to do with their making square aspects to planets in the fourth house, so they represent changes of abode, albeit temporarily? |
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Larxene
Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| ea wrote: | Thank you for elaborating, Larxene. One problem here with the 6th and the 12th houses though is that you don't necessarily have to go on a journey to get injured or sick .
ea |
Yes, but all houses have more than one signification. So for the 12th for example: illnesses, injuries, depression, foreign travel, etc. So any one of them can happen. It's like chess I guess. Even within one opening tree there are several lines with different ideas and strategies. For example, in the Sicilian Defense, there's the Open Sicilian or Closed Sicilian, and within the Open Sicilian there's the d6 and e6 lines...and so on. So we cannot get the line we want to play in every game.
Sometimes, none of the characteristic 12th house significations occur, especially when the planets ruling the place are well-placed and helped by benefics in the solar revolution, and the other time lords show a positive period. But when the time lords are ill-placed or even simply weakened, the likelihood of misfortune will increase.
| Paul wrote: | The way I understand it is that all the cadent places indicate a moving away from the situation or the places of activity - so all the cadent places suggest something away from centre stage. So the cadent houses represent any kind of travel or movement like that. In particular 3 and 9, with aspects to to the ascendant, represent this idea of travel.
However the 7th, rather than being travel itself per se, represents the place opposite to what you know or opposite to the current situation. So can be the destination that one travels to, or could be the 'other' place. |
Yes, this is symbolised by the struggle between diurnal and planetary motion. In the 12th, planets try to move towards the Horospokos, but are pulled away from it by diurnal motion. Hence, it is a struggle to stay alive (Horoskopos => life).
A similar idea to the 7th being the 'other place', is that of domicile and detriment. Domicile literally means 'house', while detriment is the state of being opposite one's house. That's why I prefer to call it 'being in exile'; it's like being exiled from one's home country.
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ea
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Larxene wrote: |
Sometimes, none of the characteristic 12th house significations occur, especially when the planets ruling the place are well-placed and helped by benefics in the solar revolution, and the other time lords show a positive period. But when the time lords are ill-placed or even simply weakened, the likelihood of misfortune will increase.
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Oh yes, very good point, these things are of course always important to consider. Thank you for the reminder
ea |
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Becca
Joined: 17 Mar 2014
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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The 4thH from the 4thH > 7thH is The Home Away From Home or House of Another.
I know someone who went overseas one year and in the SR of one of their family members, the person's daughter, there was a 7thH emphasis and an opposition between the Moon in Taurus and Mars in Scorpio that would result in conflict. At first glance I had far fetched thoughts of, God forbid, some sort of human trafficking or rape given the vile nature of the place they were going to but it was abuse - a forceful assault. The 7thH being doubly apt as the house of Enemies and the event, an attack against the young woman's mother. |
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