one thing studying horary astrologers have to be careful of is entertaining "practice charts," whether for themselves or others, because these tend to lack the emotional focus and sincerity that we get from meaningful questions. queries without a root in the soul will result in charts with weak symbolism, and over time we begin to distrust the divining compass within us that enables us to read horary charts with confidence. some even begin to think that there's nothing to horary, and that's a dark place to reach and hard to come back from.

my preferred alternative is practicing delineations and judgment skills on charts with known outcomes. these charts can be historical, or from a fellow horary astrologer who can demonstrate that the matter has come to a satisfactory close.

today I'm posting a known outcome chart that I will be presenting at the State of the Art Conference in Niagara Falls, NY (USA) this October (donnavantoen.com). the question is, "Will we get back together?" 26 July 2014, 9:41pm. West Hollywood, CA. 9?Pis43' rises.

the querent, male, came to me after a disappointing week of trying to woo his ex-lover, also male. the quesited reached out to the querent and arranged for them to have dinner plans, eventually confirmed for the Saturday following (Aug 2). naturally the querent was hopeful, but wanted to know if they would be brought back together at this time and if there was anything he could do to affect the situation to his liking.

the querent is represented by Jupiter, only 2? into Leo. the quesited is represented by Mercury in Cancer. (use 1st/7th axis for this question.) Jupiter left Cancer on July 16th. I asked the querent if that's about the time they broke up. the querent confirmed that they broke up the evening of July 16th.

for those without an ephemeris, Mercury's next aspect is to Jupiter, and that aspect perfected the Saturday they were scheduled to meet again.

so, fellow students of horary, what do you make of this? will they get back together? why do you suspect they broke up in the first place? (the chart shows it, through the signature of the significators and their zodiacal position, house position and planetary aspects.) can the relationship be mended? will it be mended? what else do you see in the chart?

clarifying questions are welcome, but I can only tell you what I knew about the situation at the time I received the question. I will post the resolution to this horary in a week's time, with a little something extra that is so stunning it left me at once speechless and humbled.

Really interesting chart Wca, mostly because I thought it would be a really quick one, but actually there are a few things in it that make me pause.

First of all, the querent is Jupiter, as you say, having just left its dignity and is now in Leo. The Sun is separating from Jupiter indicating the separating combustion of Jupiter, in addition we have a new moon in the chart, the Moon just separating and applying to a malefic, Saturn, by square with no dignity between them. Mercury applies to Jupiter, but will first have to leave its sign, so perfecting across cusps suggests at the very least some delay.

The aspect will eventually perfect on the weekend in question, however before doing so, Mercury will first have to perfect with Mars, but at the same time, Mars will perfect with Jupiter, prohibiting our perfection. Considering the malefics are getting involved both with our primary significators, as well as with the Moon, I am inclined to believe that ultimately nothing good long term comes from this. So unfortunately I do not think that the relationship progresses long term. The number of things in the chart suggesting something hidden (combustion, new moon, etc) suggests that something unknown or hidden either from the astrologer or the querent is going on as well, and with the presence of the malefics and Mars in particular prohibiting the aspect I am inclined to wonder about another person who is involved in this. Perhaps an ex or some other third party who has an interest in not keeping the two together.

So who is Mars? I am just not sure, it rules the second and is in the 8th (at least by the quadrant system you posted) with the north node augmenting its effects. It suggests some money issue perhaps, I wonder if it's the reason for the meeting, but ultimately I am not certain of it at all, it's just my best guess right now - otherwise it's another individual. With combustion and the hidden things going on, I suspect there are things going on that the querent or the astrologer didn't know. Keeping in mind a combust querent may not take advice well or convey all the information correctly.

I am sure I'm missing a whole tonne of other information, it feels like one of those horaries, so I look forward to hearing what others say and finding out what the end result was.

If I think of anything more I'll post some more.

Paul wrote:Really interesting chart Wca, mostly because I thought it would be a really quick one, but actually there are a few things in it that make me pause.

I had the same sense, actually, and as I said before this chart taught me a lot in the end.

Paul wrote:First of all, the querent is Jupiter, as you say, having just left its dignity and is now in Leo. The Sun is separating from Jupiter indicating the separating combustion of Jupiter, in addition we have a new moon in the chart, the Moon just separating and applying to a malefic, Saturn, by square with no dignity between them. Mercury applies to Jupiter, but will first have to leave its sign, so perfecting across cusps suggests at the very least some delay.

this is one of those charts that affirm for me that charts come to you when you're ready to tackle them. the week prior to this chart I had done some research and reading on planetary orbs and how to handle aspects that would eventually perfect but were currently out of an allowable orb. if I hadn't really meditated on this, this applying aspect would have thrown me. "they're applying, but out of orb. the conjunction will be Mercury's next aspect, but not Jupiter's. does this mean they get together eventually, or when Mercury enters Leo, or not at all?" I would have been frozen.

Paul wrote:The number of things in the chart suggesting something hidden (combustion, new moon, etc) suggests that something unknown or hidden either from the astrologer or the querent is going on as well, and with the presence of the malefics and Mars in particular prohibiting the aspect I am inclined to wonder about another person who is involved in this. Perhaps an ex or some other third party who has an interest in not keeping the two together.

So who is Mars? I am just not sure, it rules the second and is in the 8th (at least by the quadrant system you posted) with the north node augmenting its effects. It suggests some money issue perhaps, I wonder if it's the reason for the meeting, but ultimately I am not certain of it at all, it's just my best guess right now - otherwise it's another individual. With combustion and the hidden things going on, I suspect there are things going on that the querent or the astrologer didn't know. Keeping in mind a combust querent may not take advice well or convey all the information correctly.

you're absolutely on the right track to be concerned about Mars here. obviously I'm not sure if something's been hidden from me, but if it was it has never surfaced. I feel confident that I have full understanding of the situation, partly because I know the querent well but also because I watched the situation play out over the span of a few weeks.

Paul wrote:I am sure I'm missing a whole tonne of other information, it feels like one of those horaries, so I look forward to hearing what others say and finding out what the end result was.

at this stage I'm not going to confirm or deny whether you're right with the judgment, but I will say that you are certainly picking up on all the themes that brought this problem to a head.

I understand that known answer charts can be more intimidating, but I do hope more forum participants weigh in. forums are a great place for shared learning, and I know that Deb and Paul work hard to keep this a safe place for contributors.

While I had hoped to have more participation on this thread, it has been a week since it was first posted and I need to make good on my commitment to post the horary resolution. Paul, you will see a lot of the points you made fleshed out in the write-up below.

--

I was concerned that the querent was misdirected in his hopeful attitude upon seeing Neptune conjunct the Ascendant. In asking the querent for background of the situation, the querent shared that the problems centered around fidelity and distrust. The querent was a bit of a showboat (Jupiter in Leo), and tended to attract attention whenever he went out. He didn?t make a big deal of others flirting openly with him, and would often encourage it. In his mind this was no issue as he had no intention of engaging with anyone other than the quesited, but to his partner this was cause for suspicion and it planted a seed of distrust.

Often the problem with Mercury/Jupiter relationships is one of superiority (Jupiter is the second most superior planet, Mercury the second most inferior) and modes of operation. Mercury is quick, thinking a million miles per minute and needing frequent assurances that everything is as it should be (especially when in Cancer). Jupiter is far more liberal and relaxed, easy-going and can?t be bothered with the constant reaffirmation of affections. The querent admitted that he was aware of this problem in their relationship. The quesited was regularly checking in with the querent to take a pulse check on emotional standing, usually to satisfy some insecurity in the relationship that the quesited was feeling. The querent, however, didn?t invest much in calming those storms, and in true Jupiterian fashion responded a too liberally? ?Oh, things are fine, stop fretting,? and ?You have nothing to worry about, calm down.? Needless to say, this did nothing to alleviate concerns and instead fueled their fire, as it appeared to the quesited that the querent was side-stepping the issue. It?s important to note that Jupiter is in the turned 12th house for the quesited, further illustrating the quesited?s concern that the querent is an ill-match that will causes too much internal distress. Mercury?s placement in the 5th house of pleasure suggests that the quesited had come to see their relationship as a passing fling with no real commitments.

So will these two be brought back together? Mercury?s next aspect is to a conjunction of Jupiter, but as the chart stands this aspect is out of orb. Mercury has an orb of 7? so can only extend his rays to the 28th degree of Cancer. Jupiter remains outside of Mercury?s reach. Planets in orb are locked in, and their effects can be readily felt. Aspects outside of orb illustrate potential. Mercury will eventually reach Jupiter, yes, but being out of orb we cannot reliably judge on how that aspect perfection will play out, if at all.

Before Mercury can meet Jupiter, Mars will perfect his square to Jupiter from the 8th house. The Moon is separating from the conjunction of the Sun, the 6th house ruler, to 8th-house Saturn, who is himself the ruler of the radical 12th house of self-undoing. These aspects carry a lot of unfortunate symbolism with them and are testimonies of disagreements (Mars), disappointment (Saturn), and the death of a relationship (Moon and Jupiter both in aspect to 8th house malefics). I told the querent I didn't see any chance of them being brought together amicably, but to handle himself with some dignity as he works through this difficult time.

It was crucial to incorporate the conjunction of Mercury to Jupiter into judgment. The querent mentioned, as the impetus for this question, that the quesited had suggested they have dinner and "talk." The word "date" was casually mentioned. In real-time Mercury and Jupiter would perfect the Saturday following, so I judged that they would get together on that date. As stated in the original post, they did meet Sat, Aug 2. The date went well enough to the querent, but it was later revealed that the feelings of excitement weren?t reciprocated. The quesited confirmed for himself that night that his heart had changed and that he no longer felt the affections he once did. This was coupled by a later admission that our querent had been casually dating another man in the 2-week period since the break-up (Mars square Jupiter prohibiting Mercury?s conjunction). Things got a bit hot at that point, and any ground made in progress was lost. On August 4th, at 4:31pm, the quesited told the querent that it was truly over.

Below is a bi-wheel showing the original horary positions and the planetary transits at the time of resolution, when the querent was informed the relationship was over. Notice that Venus, the ruler of the 8th house in the original horary, has come to an exact conjunction of the horary Mercury at 20??Cancer. This is a symbol of Mercury?s realization that the relationship is dead and lacks vitality. Mercury has moved to the place of the horary Moon (just separating with Mercury at 8? Leo), and Jupiter to the place of the horary Sun (exact at 4? Leo). The luminaries illuminate and bring discovery, so these contacts are indications that the reality of the ending relationship has come to the fore for both querent and quesited. The transiting Moon has recently separated from a conjunction of the horary Saturn and a square to the horary Mercury. Transiting Mars has also come to 5? Scorpio, squaring both the horary Sun and Moon.
We can often see these connections in resolution charts timed for the moment when the original horary matter has ultimately perfected. These connections to the original horary serve to illustrate how horary charts, like all astrological charts, fold into a larger pattern of cosmic symbolism and movement. No chart stands alone; no chart, that is, that is derived from a concern sufficiently rooted in the soul stands alone. And these are the only charts we should entertain in horary anyway, as astrology does not make comment on flippant, idle curiosities. Connections seen in resolution charts have a lot to say for how we approach the topic of radicality, a subject outside the scope of this thread but sufficiently covered in Deb Houlding?s ?Introductions to Horary Astrology, Part 9: Considerations and Radicality,? published in the Aug/Sept 2014 issue of The Mountain Astrologer.

guys,

I had been looking at this chart and wondering if the querent was creating a self-illusion / an ideal world.
Neptune so close to Asce made me wonder about self - illusion and self-deception.

WCA you said "Jupiter remains outside of Mercury?s reach. Planets in orb are locked in, and their effects can be readily felt. Aspects outside of orb illustrate potential. Mercury will eventually reach Jupiter, yes, but being out of orb we cannot reliably judge on how that aspect perfection will play out, if at all. "
Tanit mentions you can look it up that when 2 planets are out of the orb it represents that whatever is asked about will get there with a delay. The chart I posted has an exact the same problem. BUT with your chart we have an interference .. Mars getting to jupiter before merc/jupiter perfect. So Mars is in the middle. Again with Moon and Saturn and their "natal" locations pointing to the same conclusion as neptune on asce. A person is literally fooling himself or not taking his own "heart" / emotional needs seriously. Then you have Jupiter and moon combusted. Definately feeling overwhelmed and "intimidated" or "overpowered" by the whole situation. I am looking at L5th house Moon and wondering incoming inconjunction with asce. That is telling me that a person will have to settle with whatever comes because Mercury is the one who is doing all the moves.
I cannot make out if Jupiter is in 6th house or is it in 5th. I have mentioned this on my chart that according to Ivy Goldstein, when a planet is cadent and fixed, the person is not in charge of the situation and will not act without some kind of aid. Mercury will change its sign into Leo, That is important because that's a change of attitude. It is not helping Jupiter at all .. The rest you guys covered pretty well.
I cannot say I can add more! Good job everyone!

CD

cosmicdolphin wrote:Tanit mentions you can look it up that when 2 planets are out of the orb it represents that whatever is asked about will get there with a delay. The chart I posted has an exact the same problem. BUT with your chart we have an interference .. Mars getting to jupiter before merc/jupiter perfect. So Mars is in the middle.

It's true that Mars is an afflicting rather than assisting planet. This isn't a case of standard interference/prohibition, because Mercury perfects with Jupiter AFTER Mars passes over Jupiter. If this were a case where Mercury was at 29 Cancer in the chart, that would have been prohibition. Mercury would have passed over Mars and Jupiter before Mars finished perfecting with Jupiter. As Mars gets closer and closer he distracts Jupiter with his impending influence, and Mercury misses his chance to make the direct connection he seeks.

Even if Mars wasn't involved in this chart, I would have been hesitant to say "yes," given the Moon's application to Saturn and the lack of an in-orb connection. At the very best it could say "maybe, after a period of delay and despair," and the querent would have had to make significant strides in mending relations before Mercury/Mars conjoin in real-time.

The point I made in response to Paul's post was that if I hadn't been secure on how I read out of orb aspects, I would have been tripped up because this isn't classical prohibition and Mercury does eventually connect. To me, I looked at this chart for half a minute and drew up a "no," and drove forward with it.

WCA

i have an eerie feeling that Mars was pulling Merc and Jupiter apart.
because it aspected both planets AND is malefic! Plus Merc joins Jupiter BUT after it changes its attitude. I am not crazy about such drastic change from mute sign to loud Leo. Are you following my trend of thought?

It's sort of like if 2 people are having a problem, 3rd one comes in and tells both people separately that he/she deserves better. Also notice reception between mars/merc and mars/jupiter. It is almost like Mars is malicious. Mars got to Mercury first and affected Mercury to change his attitude towards Jupiter. Then the change of Mercury affected Jupiter to lose all the hope for Mercury

yeah, check this out I noticed about post interference conjunction. It is not easy one either.. On AW there is a chart from the Saturnian on is French girl 12 page thread. it has that exact thing. It was a delay he met the girl and the relationship didn't take off.

Without Mars, i would have said NO WAY!
A. reception between merc and jupiter would have been lost.
B. Then you have combustion
c. New Moon
d. Mercury changing from jupiter friendly to Leo loss of reception issue
e. neptune on asce!
f. Jupiter sitting in cadent house.

Any other charts?
CD

wca wrote: Often the problem with Mercury/Jupiter relationships is one of superiority (Jupiter is the second most superior planet, Mercury the second most inferior) and modes of operation. Mercury is quick, thinking a million miles per minute and needing frequent assurances that everything is as it should be (especially when in Cancer).

This is a really interesting way of looking at the significations here, along with seeing Jupiter as the peacock kind of guy.

I was thinking, without realising, that Mercury, being swifter, is the one who ultimately does the most work in the relationship, or the one who is putting in the effort to either make it work or to move on.

The quesited confirmed for himself that night that his heart had changed and that he no longer felt the affections he once did. This was coupled by a later admission that our querent had been casually dating another man in the 2-week period since the break-up (Mars square Jupiter prohibiting Mercury?s conjunction).

Thanks Wade, I'm glad something like this was revealed because I really felt from the horary that there was a third person invovled and something hidden going on, either hidden from you at the time the horary was cast, or something the querent was witholding from the situation, or perhaps the quesited. As I thought the querent may tell you about another person (and this would have been mentioned as background information) the other possibility may have been some financial problem. But if there was nothing of that nature in the horary then I think I would have been more worried as to me that indication of something being kept hidden and some third party was fairly clear in the horary. It's interesting in that I initially ruled this out on the presumption that the querent would have told us about it, but wanted to underscore it anyway due to the querent being combust and therefore may not take advice well or may be keeping something back or hidden.

Mercury has an orb of 7? so can only extend his rays to the 28th degree of Cancer. Jupiter remains outside of Mercury?s reach. Planets in orb are locked in, and their effects can be readily felt. Aspects outside of orb illustrate potential. Mercury will eventually reach Jupiter, yes, but being out of orb we cannot reliably judge on how that aspect perfection will play out, if at all.

This is one way to use it, another might be to consider that Mercury is just entering Jupiter's orb of 12 degrees. Personally I don't think it matters one way or another in that they're not both within orb of one another and so we have that same sense of disconnect or delay which is re-emphasised by the change of sign.


This has been a really interesting case example, I'm disappointed others didn't get involved and see what they felt the horary was saying. There's no problem with being wrong on these things as they all serve to help learn what the story of a horary is telling us. I think you did a great job interpreting it and it was great to get the full story and see it reflected back at us in the horary!

Guys,

One of you mentioned that when a planet is out of the orb with another yet aspect it is a potential for fruition. How do you know if potential will be fulfilled?

I am curious.

Thanks

cosmicdolphin wrote:Guys,

One of you mentioned that when a planet is out of the orb with another yet aspect it is a potential for fruition. How do you know if potential will be fulfilled?

I am curious.

Thanks

I would look to make sure no other planet perfects with it, or with the applying planet, and even better if reception is involved or if there's an aspect to the cusp of the querent/quesited (depending on which planet it is). That would be my view.

In this case Mars cuts off the light between the aspects anyway (whether we call that prohibition or not probably isn't the most important part) so we know that we have a malefic cutting off the light of the aspect so what looks like a resolution really isn't.

hi Paul
Not to high jack this thread.. but in the one I posted. Mercury does not meet any interference with Jupiter but there is Jupiter/Saturn counterantiscia going on. I have read that counterantiscia is not effecting major aspects.
That chart I posted so weird. It seems straight forward but it is not esp we cannot confirm Mercury's *quested's* situation.

WCA;s chart was very clear, it was a No Go. Poor querent who asked the question.

cosmicdolphin wrote:i have an eerie feeling that Mars was pulling Merc and Jupiter apart. because it aspected both planets AND is malefic!

I don't disagree, but in a purely metaphorical sense. the person the querent had started talking to, in a romantic sense, did not know the quesited.

cosmicdolphin wrote:It's sort of like if 2 people are having a problem, 3rd one comes in and tells both people separately that he/she deserves better. Also notice reception between mars/merc and mars/jupiter. It is almost like Mars is malicious. Mars got to Mercury first and affected Mercury to change his attitude towards Jupiter. Then the change of Mercury affected Jupiter to lose all the hope for Mercury

as I stated before, the quesited did not know the person signified by Mars in the chart. Mars was purely a sexual distraction for the querent who ended up being the source of some drama in the end.

Paul wrote:I was thinking, without realising, that Mercury, being swifter, is the one who ultimately does the most work in the relationship, or the one who is putting in the effort to either make it work or to move on.

well, you're certainly not wrong that the quesited put more work in. he, after all, was the one who made contact and attempted to right the ship. and, in my mind, the quesited wanted it more, because the querent just could control himself in the weeks between their break and showcase how faithful and trustworthy he could be. usually when we get a horary about a relationship, the more inferior planet signifies the querent, so this was definitely a unique situation for me.

Paul wrote:Thanks Wade, I'm glad something like this was revealed because I really felt from the horary that there was a third person invovled and something hidden going on, either hidden from you at the time the horary was cast, or something the querent was witholding from the situation, or perhaps the quesited.

I've often said when discussing this chart that if something was hidden from me, I didn't know. but now that I'm really dissecting the timeline, the querent had to have been talking to this other guy and withholding that from me. if I'd leaned on the Mars signification and combust Moon more, I'm sure it would have come out in the consultation, so I take that as feedback and am happy to have received it.

Paul wrote:This is one way to use it, another might be to consider that Mercury is just entering Jupiter's orb of 12 degrees. Personally I don't think it matters one way or another in that they're not both within orb of one another and so we have that same sense of disconnect or delay which is re-emphasised by the change of sign.

we must be using different orb sets. I have Jupiter's orb at 9?, Moon at 12?, Sun at 15? as recorded by Dariot. if I had used a 12??orb that would have changed the judgment for me, because as you noted Jupiter would have had Mercury in his net.

I do remember, in the consultation, telling the querent that prospects looked bleak, because the chart showed the querent to be someone unwilling to make the kind of life change that Mercury would have expected. I wonder if I had been more direct -- "it's possible, but here's what it will take and it will need to happen now" -- if the outcome would have been different. ultimately I felt in the consultation that the querent genuinely didn't want to change, but wanted to find someone with as liberal an outlook on love and romance as he had. I'm not sure on that point, but it's certainly worth reflecting on as astrologers, to ensure that we helped guide the client to their best potential.

Paul wrote:This has been a really interesting case example, I'm disappointed others didn't get involved and see what they felt the horary was saying. There's no problem with being wrong on these things as they all serve to help learn what the story of a horary is telling us. I think you did a great job interpreting it and it was great to get the full story and see it reflected back at us in the horary!

thanks Paul, and I appreciate your earnest assessment and the moments of feedback you've been able to provide. I have always appreciated your leadership on this forum!

cosmicdolphin wrote:One of you mentioned that when a planet is out of the orb with another yet aspect it is a potential for fruition. How do you know if potential will be fulfilled?

I'm fully in line with what Paul had to say on this. remember in this chart we had a combust Moon, Moon moving to Saturn, Neptune on the Ascendant, planets in averse signs, and a combust L1 significator (albeit exiting). there was so much negative in the chart direction that it would have been hard, with or without Mars' involvement, to give a "yes" answer. Mars merely provided a direction and a how -- Mars showed us how this would continue to fall apart (the involvement of another man).

the critical point seems, to me, that an out-of-orb aspect still hasn't settled into its full expression and has a wide range of flexibility in how it materializes. it's too loose to judge reliably, but certainly critical to incorporate into judgment (as I did with giving an exact date for the querent and quesited's dinner date on Aug 2). but when you see that an aspect will perfect eventually, and it's out of orb but only slightly, and that no other planet will perfect or interfere first, and there are not mountains of conflicting testimonies to the contrary, I would say, "it's definitely possible. currently the connection's not there, but the opportunity is forthcoming. here is what it will take -- x, y, z. without taking these steps, the opportunity will very likely be missed."