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Weak malefics - even more malefic?
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael

Just briefly, my thoughts on Einstein's chart, I don't know how others would view this.

Quote:
Saturn in his fall in Aries, under the Sun's beams, in a cadent house (even though this depends on the house system used) and, hey, Mercury in exact applying conjunction.


Saturn is in Aries, but in sect, and heliacally setting into the Sun's beams, whereby it loses some of its accidental fortitude - it is obscured in the sky. At the same time Mercury is heliacally rising from the sun, in a 'phasis' condition and so making a pronouncement or exclamation in the sky, drawing our emphasis and attention. It emerges like a newborn with a sense of vitality.

As for Saturn, already noting it heliacally setting, it's also worth pointing out that not only is it in sect but also forming a mutual reception with Mars, its dispositor.

Perhaps there's something important to Saturn being obscured by the Sun, removing that sense of boundary whilst Mercury emerges purified and renewed from the Sun.

Obviously we should not begin and end our judgement of a chart with essential dignity alone. It's just one of several things we can take into consideration when forming our judgement.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
I wonder if any of you traditionalists can help me here. I keep running into cases of "debilitated" malefics that don't seem to manifest themselves as one would expect according to the classical rules.

Please take a look at the chart of Nikola Tesla.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8254&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

This man was one of the greatest inventors in history and also known for his excellent mathematical abilities. How are we to reconcile this with Saturn in a nocturnal chart being in his detriment Cancer, under the Sun's beams, in a cadent house, and throwing some tough aspects? What particularly baffles me is Mercury's applying conjunction (okay, he is dignified by being in his domicile but that's about it).

Likewise for Albert Einstein, without a doubt another brilliant thinker.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8254&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

Saturn in his fall in Aries, under the Sun's beams, in a cadent house (even though this depends on the house system used) and, hey, Mercury in exact applying conjunction.

Thoughts, anybody?


It will be wrong to think that their life was smooth ,rosy and all up and above.

Einstein had a dull job problem, a Hitler problem and leaving Germany problem.

The brilliance of Tesla was clouded by by the Direct current multi-patent Edison.

They rose in spite of the debility and the dispositor of their 10th lord is giving them secondary strength.

PD
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the nativities of Tesla and Einstein, etc, I would first note that not all traditionalists use the same zodiac. Second, we are primarily looking for a strong (however defined) Mercury, not a strong Saturn -- though naturally, the latter won't hurt. Saturn configured with Mercury will influence it in a certain direction, but it is still Mercury who signifies (or, to speak with Morin, has an analogy with) intellectual capacity. Finally, when Mercury is conjunct Saturn, the latter will necessarily be in the immediate vicinity of the Sun for much of the time. Whether it is actually heliacally set is a more complex question.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
On the nativities of Tesla and Einstein, etc, I would first note that not all traditionalists use the same zodiac.


That's certainly true... But bear in mind that this particular question was raised by a Tropical astrologer on (as I believe) a Tropical forum regarding a Tropical chart, and was commented on by other Tropical astrologers, so I think it's quite adequate that we consider it in the Tropical zodiac. Laughing

Quote:
Second, we are primarily looking for a strong (however defined) Mercury, not a strong Saturn -- though naturally, the latter won't hurt. Saturn configured with Mercury will influence it in a certain direction, but it is still Mercury who signifies (or, to speak with Morin, has an analogy with) intellectual capacity.


I beg to differ. We are talking about the combination of Mercury with Saturn here, really. A few keywords on this from Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences may serve to illustrate (I'm translating from my German edition): Depth of thought, mental work, logical thinking, thoroughness, concentration, objectivity, methodology. On the negative side we have things like: Inhibitions in mental development, clumsiness. So the question remains why these men are such outstanding examples of the former (as opposed to the latter) when Saturn is debilitated. Obviously we need to consider Mercury, too (which Paul did, to a degree).

Quote:
Finally, when Mercury is conjunct Saturn, the latter will necessarily be in the immediate vicinity of the Sun for much of the time.


But by no means always! As you certainly know, Mercury can be as far as 28° away from the Sun; so, assuming an orb of 8°, Saturn can even be conjunct Mercury while being a safe 36° away from the Sun.

Quote:
Whether it is actually heliacally set is a more complex question.


And an interesting one. Regarding it I dug out this interesting thread:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=77265&highlight=&sid=a3f95ac39d4d1fef2a0c68c4021ca28e

Paul and Pankaj, I will comment on your posts shortly. Smile
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
That's certainly true... But bear in mind that this particular question was raised by a Tropical astrologer on (as I believe) a Tropical forum [...]

We certainly can't keep the forum all tropical unless we want to ban large chunks (historical and geographical) of astrological tradition, which would be a shame. I don't want to start another debate here; it was just a point relevant to the question of zodiacal dignities.

Quote:
I beg to differ. We are talking about the combination of Mercury with Saturn here, really.

Yes, but a combination still consists of distinct elements with distinct significations, and intellect is a signification of Mercury. (We could view the combination the other way around and ask what Mercury is doing to the significations of Saturn, but then we wouldn't be discussing intellectual achievements anymore.) I don't think you will find a traditional source that views a combination of two planets as merging into a new, third element.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Saturn is in Aries, but in sect, and heliacally setting into the Sun's beams, whereby it loses some of its accidental fortitude - it is obscured in the sky.


I can see that Saturn in sect would be considered less debilitating. As to his being obscured and therefore decreased in strength, I wonder if this actually accurately describes Einstein's Saturn, as he seems to be strong, but in a constructive way (see Ebertin's keywords cited in my previous post).

Quote:
At the same time Mercury is heliacally rising from the sun, in a 'phasis' condition and so making a pronouncement or exclamation in the sky, drawing our emphasis and attention. It emerges like a newborn with a sense of vitality.


This is interesting but if Mercury is really in a phasis condition would hinge on the question whether Mercury is in fact heliacally rising (if my understanding of these traditional terms is appropriate). By the way, what is the easiest way to compute whether a planet is in phasis? (I'm using the software Morinus for the more traditional considerations.)

Quote:
As for Saturn, already noting it heliacally setting, it's also worth pointing out that not only is it in sect but also forming a mutual reception with Mars, its dispositor.


Right - I also notice that Mars is dignified by standing in his exaltation.

Quote:
Obviously we should not begin and end our judgement of a chart with essential dignity alone. It's just one of several things we can take into consideration when forming our judgement.


Obviously.
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

I can see that Saturn in sect would be considered less debilitating. As to his being obscured and therefore decreased in strength, I wonder if this actually accurately describes Einstein's Saturn, as he seems to be strong, but in a constructive way (see Ebertin's keywords cited in my previous post).


Right, but I don't think we can have it both ways. We can't on one hand say Saturn is placed there so this should be a bad thing, but then say Saturn is placed there and this seems like a good thing. My personal view is that planets in fall tend to fail to manifest their symbolism in a constructive and controlled way, but may instead manifest in a manner which is unorthodox or atypical. But whilst helically setting banishes some of the influence of the planet involved one way we might want to mix these testimonies is to consider that Saturn here is making some of its last appearances before setting and so these qualities of manifesting outside the box or in an unorthodox manner may be more noticeable. In this way I would form a judgement that Saturn here is showing there to be a lack of limits in a way, or a failure to be contained within a box, particularly in regards Mercury who, as you note, applies to Saturn, keeping in mind that Saturn is in sect and mutual reception with its dispositor, and Mercury helically rises and so inundates the chart with its quality. Together it at least suggests, to me at least, something of Einstein's genius.

Quote:
This is interesting but if Mercury is really in a phasis condition would hinge on the question whether Mercury is in fact heliacally rising (if my understanding of these traditional terms is appropriate). By the way, what is the easiest way to compute whether a planet is in phasis? (I'm using the software Morinus for the more traditional considerations.)


I don't have software to calculate it, but I go by as the Greeks did which is to apply an orb to the Sun. Others, such as Rumen Kolev, suggest being more mathematical as you do here. If you have the software, perhaps check and see.

Anyway my point is more that we should be wary of throwing away traditional astrology just on the strength of whether or not we observe, in a cookbook style, whether the essential dignities appear to be working as we might expect. Sometimes there are other things going on (like here with helical rising/setting).
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
It will be wrong to think that their life was smooth ,rosy and all up and above.

Einstein had a dull job problem, a Hitler problem and leaving Germany problem.

The brilliance of Tesla was clouded by by the Direct current multi-patent Edison.

They rose in spite of the debility and the dispositor of their 10th lord is giving them secondary strength.


Yes, it may well be that the difficulties these men experienced had to do with their "debilitated" Saturn positions. What I'm trying to understand here, however, is how their extraordinary mental abilities could unfold despite their Saturn in conjunction with their Mercury, from a traditional perspective.
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a couple of things about Einstein's chart: anyone with Mercury in the 10th house making his evening appearance and in a sign of Mars is going to be brilliant mathematically. Secondly, Einstein also has Jupiter making his morning appearance 4 days after the birth in his own sign, culminating while Fomalhaut is also culminating. Fomalhaut is a star of knowledge traditionally, and Jupiter's own powerful position here augments its effects. Also, with the Moon in aversion to the ASC, Jupiter has the opportunity to speak for the native himself, and of his general life experience, by virtue of being in the 9th sign and being powerful enough to be heard.

I have seen planets combining with fixed stars and then dominating the life regardless of other considerations. It happens too with planets on their own. The chart has to be read holistically and not in a piecemeal fashion nor in a x + y = z manner. If two planets are making appearances in angles in a chart, then these two have to be considered the most dominant planets in that chart and they will seize control of the life from the others despite the powerful planets not ruling anything too major in the chart . Not every planet has an equal voice, and especially not in Einstein's life. Mostly, planets find importance via management of vital parts of the chart like the ASC, the Sect Light and by acting as the Alcocoden, for example, but in Einstein's case we have a couple of usurpers. That's not to say that Saturn will be meaningless though. Looking at Einstein's time-lords, it looks like he was the one charged with taking Einstein from Germany and moving him abroad, but even then the general fortune found throughout Einstein's nativity meant that despite in effect being in exile, he still had a fortunate experience there. This general overview of a chart is the main reason for me concluding that attempts to "prove" astrology statistically are always going to fail. It just doesn't work that way. There are certain configurations that everything else in the life has to abide by and work with if they want to be heard in that life. In this case, it is the power of Mercury and Jupiter.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, regarding your post in general:

Thanks for sharing your differentiated outlook on Einstein's chart. I feel that your idea that a planet in its fall is inclined to express itself in unorthodox or atypical ways is particularly worthy of consideration.

Unlike some other modern astrologers, I agree with you that we shouldn't throw any elements of traditional astrology out on the garbage as long as we haven't thoroughly explored them - especially those which have been an essential part of the art we cherish for centuries or millennia. This doesn't mean that we should take them at face value, but it's suggesting that there is indeed validity to them. Some modifications may be appropriate sometimes in light of the changes that humanity is subject to.

And yes, charts must certainly be studied in toto - even though it's sometimes remarkable what can be deduced even from singled out factors. Still, I wonder how many astrologers would recognize that the chart we are talking about belongs to an extraordinary scientific mind if they wouldn't know it in the first, even by reading the chart in depth.

Be that as it may, it is at times useful to look at certain factors more or less in isolation in pursuit of particular topics.

I would appreciate if you could also say something on Tesla's Saturn/Mercury conjunction, if you can find the time.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michaels pointed examples, pauls planetary phase comments and konrad's general overview.. thanks for all that.. i think martin pointing out how things look different using sidereal is a good point too.. all of it reminds me how astrology is more art then science..

if anyone knows of any literature that really focuses on the role of planetary phase in relation to the strength or weakness of a planets expression related to the sun, i'd be very curious. i had heard deb houlding was maybe going to write a book highlighting the inner planets planetary phase..

how much weight does one give planetary phase, verses 'tropical' or sidereal sign placement in terms of planetary strength or weakness? this is why i believe astrology is more art then science. there aren't going to be any hard and fast rules for this..

i am about 60 pages into lee lehmans recent book 'classical solar returns'.. it is too early for me to comment with conviction, but she discusses some issues that astronovice was curious about - natal verses relocated - and doesn't shy away from addressing more challenging issues confronting astrologers faced with a wide range of techniques to choose from today including the idea of relocation.. of that i am appreciative.

in the section i am reading now - on teddy roosevelt, she focuses on a 10 year period while showing how she interprets the various different natal solar returns for this period.. she skips over making direct connections between what i view as the most important consideration (between the natal and solar return chart) - the angles - by appearing to overlook when a planet in the natal would be conjunct, or very close to the same degree as the ascendant or midheaven angle in the solar return, and vice versa...

now, i need to qualify that teddy roosevelts chart has a B rating which makes working with data off angles more uncertain.. does anyone have the rectified time given for roosevelt by "Dr. H."?
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Roosevelt,_Teddy

in the solar return for 1904 when roosevelt was re-elected in a landslide as president of the usa, the degree of the solar return ascendant is 11 degrees leo, which is the same degree as natal saturn in roosevelts chart..the sr moon/pluto conjunction is also directly on or applying to natal jupiter/ascendant conjunction.. lehman doesn't discuss this any, but it got me to thinking about the importance of saturn in roosevelts chart and the idea of weak or strong malefics based only on sign position of a planet..roosevelts chart is interesting from this point of view of weak or strong malefics by only sign position and leaving out planetary phase.. mars in cap, moon in cancer, jupiter in gemini, saturn in leo - all worth considering when trying to understand the specific solar return charts better.. in roosevelts chart one notes immediately the commanding position of saturn in relation to the sun/mercury conjunction in scorpio.. this is called the upper square or dexter square i believe - i never use that term - and often shows up in charts i look at where a person achieves a greater level of worldly success and accomplishment.. if i didn't see this so often, i probably would have ignored it by now! it is what i refer to as a 10th solar house saturn position.. at any rate i think saturns position by planetary phase is strong in roosevelts chart.

does one fall back on the sign position as being the most important consideration for defining whether a planet is 'weak' or 'strong' or do they integrate sign position with planetary phase? does house position trump sign position or planetary phase, or are the inter-related aspects to a planet responsible for creating a more or less supportive environment for the specific planet to operate more effectively?

in the examples of einstein and tesla (another chart with a B rating - i have two different charts for him - http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Tesla%2C_Nikola ) one notes that mercury and saturn have a natural affinity for one another.. how does an astrologer factor this in? it is sort of my same question asked in the previous paragraph in the last sentence..

so, ultimately i go with konrads view even though i come to conclusions differently - astrology is an art that requires a consideration of a number of factors that don't allow for simple answers most of the time..
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Yair Alon



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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: About Einstein Reply with quote

Just a quick note about Einstein...

Biographers always remember us that Einstein was a late speaker at his childhood, and his parents were worried he might be retarded. Some science historians even today believe that Einstein could have been dyslexic, schizofrenic or owner of Asperger's syndrom, all of these affecting somehow his brain.

Also, legend tells that Einstein himself was terrible with Mathematics, and that his wife helped him with this part of his work. He was good at physics and abstract thinking, but was not very good handling mathematical data and formulas.

Best Regards!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Quote:
But bear in mind that this particular question was raised by a Tropical astrologer on (as I believe) a Tropical forum regarding a Tropical chart, and was commented on by other Tropical astrologers, so I think it's quite adequate that we consider it in the Tropical zodiac.

Somewhere in recent months Deb posted a message to the effect that sidereal views were welcome anywhere on Skyscript. No forum is limited only to sidereal or tropical views. Even on the sidereal forum tropical views are posted now and then and are not censored. Deb's message supersedes any personal preference of moderators.

Yair Alon wrote:
Quote:
Just a quick note about Einstein...

Biographers always remember us that Einstein was a late speaker at his childhood, and his parents were worried he might be retarded. Some science historians even today believe that Einstein could have been dyslexic, schizophrenic or owner of Asperger's syndrom, all of these affecting somehow his brain.

Also, legend tells that Einstein himself was terrible with Mathematics, and that his wife helped him with this part of his work. He was good at physics and abstract thinking, but was not very good handling mathematical data and formulas.

This then explains the otherwise puzzling position of Einstein's Mercury in sidereal Pisces. Einstein's Mercury reminds us that any zodiac sign position can have many possible expressions.

Considering the symbolism of Pisces, the Universal, Einstein's mind dwelt in realms far beyond what the rest of us can imagine or comprehend. Einstein was actually a mystic of sorts. He had a sidereal Pisces stellium: Sun, Mercury, Saturn, Venus (exalted). Note Piscean/Neptunian terminology in his quotes:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."
Albert Einstein

"A human being is a part of a whole called by us "universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest...a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature of its beauty."
Albert Einstein
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Somewhere in recent months Deb posted a message to the effect that sidereal views were welcome anywhere on Skyscript. No forum is limited only to sidereal or tropical views. Even on the sidereal forum tropical views are posted now and then and are not censored. Deb's message supersedes any personal preference of moderators.


Please provide the link to that post.

There is a sidereal Forum for a reason. And it isn't just a personal preference. It's a matter of organization. Your personal preferences don't rule either. I can and will delete posts that I think are inappropriate. And once they're gone; they're gone. If something comes up in a thread where sidereal is appropriate that is one thing. If it becomes completely sidereal or a sidereal v Tropical it's going.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, I'll find the post. It was in a communication with Mark. My last post on Einstein wasn't meant to be a vs. topic. Actually only today I thought about his universal and mystic attitude toward life. I think it's quite possible to post sidereal viewpoints now and then without it turning into a vs. platform. That isn't necessary at all, especially since a forum moderator, Martin Gansten, works from a sidereal point of view.

Recently Rumen Kolev has published his book, The Babylonian Astrolabe. A large part of the book is taken up with a description of the back and forth arguments of scholars on various points of Babylonian astronomy. This makes interesting and dynamic reading. This is the way that scholars work. Various viewpints are discussed and sometimes argued, but it's all in the name of science and progress and increased mutual understanding.

I don't plan on posting here very often. But it's indeed interesting that Einstein seems to have been more of a mystic than a mathematician.
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