skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

question about proper interpretation of morin text
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: question about proper interpretation of morin text Reply with quote

So in Astrologia Gallica book 23 on page 133, point #13, Morin says:

Quote:
A planet in a revolution is returned either only to the sign or only to the house that it occupied in the figure of the radix, or to both of them at the same time, or to neither. If it is only returned to the sign, it will produce an effect signified by the radix in accordance with the hosue that it occupies in the revolution. If only to a similar house, it will produce its own radical effect from the house by reason of the sign and its ruler in the revolution, also by reason of the radical house that that sign occupied, and both of these cases are strong on account of the doubled force of the planet, either from the sign or from the house. But if it comes to the sign and house at the same time, this case is the strongest of all and will very often produce effects from unexpected sources, which makes the influx even more admirable. But if a planet returns to neither [sign nor house], it must be seen whether it returns to its own opposition by sign or by house, which is very bad, but less so if it only returns to the opposition of the latter. And if it comes to its own trine, it will bring forth its own fortunate radical significations; but if to its own square, the reverse. And the nature and celestial and terrestrial state of the planet must be taken into account in each figure. But if the planet does not come to any of its own radical aspects, it will generally be weak in regards to its own radical significations, although it can do something else.


As I understand it, Morin is stating that if in a solar return, if the return planet does not aspect its natal location (either in terms of the sign it was natally in, or the house it was natally in) by conjunction, opposition, square or trine then said return planet will not be able to manifest its radical meaning in that solar return. Is this the correct interpretation? I just want to make sure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3504
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the way I read it. Couple of things. Not every year is going to be significant, so finding planets that do not aspect their natal position or otherwise engage that natal position or engage other natal planets, means they won't play a significant role this year.

The theory or philosophy behind this is as follows. The natal chart is the promise or potential. That promise or potential is only activated when planets engage those natal planets in directions, solar returns and/or lunar returns. No engagement = no activity. But it's only temporary. Things could change next year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tom! One more thing, from my impression of reading book #23, it seems as if the primary theme is that the natal chart is of paramount focus when interpreting return charts. That being said, does morin ever talk much about how lunar return charts trigger those things that are promised in the solar return chart? For example if there is jupiter in the 10th house of the solar return, then theoretically speaking, something intense regarding career should happen in the month that lunar return jupiter is in the lunar return 10th house. I feel like I have read this somewhere, but I don't remember if this is a "morinism" or not. By any chance do you know if there is a passage in book 23 where morin talks about this? Like I said, it seems like morin's primary focus is on how the return charts interact with the natal charts, not so much how return charts interact with each other.

One other thing, regarding the above point, I have noticed that indeed when lunar return planets are in the same house that they were in in the solar return usually something significant happens, that being said, have you noticed the same effect when a lunar return planet is in the house opposite that it was in in the solar return chart? I have been looking over a few charts and I keep noticing this trend of something significant happening when a lunar return planet is in the house opposite of its solar return position, but I don't know if this is just a coincidence or not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3504
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thanks tom! One more thing, from my impression of reading book #23, it seems as if the primary theme is that the natal chart is of paramount focus when interpreting return charts. That being said, does morin ever talk much about how lunar return charts trigger those things that are promised in the solar return chart? For example if there is jupiter in the 10th house of the solar return, then theoretically speaking, something intense regarding career should happen in the month that lunar return jupiter is in the lunar return 10th house.


In book 23 he discusses lunar returns and how the lunar return, when it most resembles what is being predicted in the solar return (usually by repeating themes in the solar return and/or nativity) shows the lunar month when the prediction will be realized. Transits narrow this down further. The most spectacular example he gives is that of King Adolphus of Sweden also in book 23.

CAUTION: Morin never accurately calculated a lunar return in his life. The tables he used, the Rudolphine Tables, weren't accurate and if he got close with the position of the Moon and/or the angles in a lunar return it was because he was lucky or made a mistake. The lunar return charts in AG book 23 should be looked at as teaching devices and not accurately calculated lunar returns.

Quote:
One other thing, regarding the above point, I have noticed that indeed when lunar return planets are in the same house that they were in in the solar return usually something significant happens, that being said, have you noticed the same effect when a lunar return planet is in the house opposite that it was in in the solar return chart?


I can't think of any but the idea is correct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one more question tom, in the same book for aphorism #14 on page 133 it states: "a planet in the revolution coming to the radical place of another combines the radical significations of both planets...", now when morin talks about a return planet coming the radical place of another planet, does he mean a return planet actually conjuncting a natal planet by degree? Or is he talking about a return planet occupying the same house in the return chart that a natal planet occupies in the natal house? Initially when I read this passage I assumed he was talking about the a return planet conjuncting a natal planet by degree, but now after reading it again I'm beginning to suspect that it might be the second interpretation, and plus it sounds more in line with morin's general way of interpreting the return charts. Whats your take on it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3504
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
now when morin talks about a return planet coming the radical place of another planet, does he mean a return planet actually conjuncting a natal planet by degree?


I would say yes. Morin was a natural philosopher. If it did not exist in nature to some extent, it was not part of astrology. What you think he might mean does not seem to fit into that kind of scheme. If Jupiter in Scorpio in the 2nd is in the nativity and Mars comes to the second, held by Aries in the return, there is no connection between Jupiter and Mars in nature and therefore not in the return.

However, if Jupiter is in Scorpio in the Second and Jupiter returns to the 2nd house regardless of sign, it is a repetition of sorts and could well indicate a fulfillment of Jupiter's natal promise to some degree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
now when morin talks about a return planet coming the radical place of another planet, does he mean a return planet actually conjuncting a natal planet by degree?


I would say yes. Morin was a natural philosopher. If it did not exist in nature to some extent, it was not part of astrology. What you think he might mean does not seem to fit into that kind of scheme. If Jupiter in Scorpio in the 2nd is in the nativity and Mars comes to the second, held by Aries in the return, there is no connection between Jupiter and Mars in nature and therefore not in the return.

However, if Jupiter is in Scorpio in the Second and Jupiter returns to the 2nd house regardless of sign, it is a repetition of sorts and could well indicate a fulfillment of Jupiter's natal promise to some degree.


ok got it. btw while I was trying to research this topic more, I stumbled across an old thread that you posted in:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2517

In this thread you said:

Quote:
Keep in mind that we are not only talking about repititions of positions or conjunctions to the nativity or repitition of the angles, but repitition of themes. Does the native have a heavy concentration of planets in one house in the nativity? Is there a similar concentration in the revolution even if it is in another house? That would be bringing the meaning of the nativity from one house to another.


I was wondering if repetition of themes also includes house rulers in houses? Like if natally I had 1st house ruler in the 10th and in the solar return I had 1st house ruler in the 10th then would this constitute repetition of theme, even though the planets involved may be totally different? I have thought about this concept before, but wasn't really comfortable applying it because it seems like its stretching things a little bit, but at the same time its theoretically sound according to the idea of "repetitions". Anyways, what do you think about it? And btw I want to thank you for answering so many of my questions so far, I'm glad that we have a resident morin expert in the forum Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3504
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And btw I want to thank you for answering so many of my questions so far, I'm glad that we have a resident morin expert in the forum


Mark Twain once defined an "expert" as "Some guy from out of town." That's about it. Thank you for the compliment, but just for the record, I don't consider myself an expert on Morin. I have read much of the books published in English and had some pleasant conversations with Bob Corre, a man who has been teaching Morin for decades; I think I have a handle on him, but expert? No. I just have an interest and some knowledge in an area that many people haven't bothered with.

Quote:
I was wondering if repetition of themes also includes house rulers in houses? Like if natally I had 1st house ruler in the 10th and in the solar return I had 1st house ruler in the 10th then would this constitute repetition of theme, even though the planets involved may be totally different?


Start with the nativity (ALWAYS!) Lord 1 in 10 indicates honors coming to the native at some point in the life. Celestial state tells us how much the native can expect. Lord 1 in 10 in the return, but in different signs is a sort of repetition and most likely indicates some honor coming to the native that year, but perhaps not as lasting as that promised in the nativity. It depends on the planets etc.

Morin also taught (like Lilly) that primary directions are the first indication of what is to happen that year. So if a direction perfected in the year where the return repeated itself AND Lord 1 was in 10 in the return, then I would think some of the criteria has been met, particularly if either the MC or ASC axis repeats that of the nativity (signs alone are good enough)

In book 23 the biggest favor you can do for yourself is study, really study, what Morin is saying about the nativity of King Gustav Adolphus of Sweden. In reality you won't see a chart that works that well if you live to be 1000, but the principles are all there. Jupiter, Lord ASC opposes Saturn in Leo in 8 and both square Mars in Scorpio in 12 - what moderns would call a T-square. The year of his death, the MC was directed to Mars. In that same year the SR angles repeated those of the nativity and SR Saturn was conjunct natal Mars, and SR Mars was conjunct natal Saturn. So we have the repetition the angles and the reversal of the planets that square Lord ASC (Life).

Then in the lunar return (not calculated accurately, but this part works) we see LR Mars and Saturn conjunct natal Mars. Chess players will recognize this planetary strategy, pile up on the weak point until it breaks.

Do not try to duplicate the lunar return in this example with a computer program. It won't work. Morin used the Rudolphine tables that he swore by and that we now know are inaccurate, and thus he never accurately calculated a lunar return in his life except by luck. But the lunar positions of the planets are sufficiently accurate even if the angles are off. It's the principles we are trying to learn not the math.

To sum up, like everything else in every chart, we can't take one aspect of position and draw conclusions. We need as much information as possible and when we get it, the game plays itself.

CAVEAT: Like I said above, don't try to duplicate the lunar returns on a computer. Print out a blank chart wheel and hand draw the planets' positions as they are in the text. I can't read the text charts that are facsimiles of the original text. If you can then you won't need to hand draw them out, but I prefer working with charts rather than flipping back and forth between pages of the text. Thank God for computers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the informative response. btw what settings do you prefer for primary directions? It seems like the consensus on this forum is semi-arc IIRC, but I'm not really sure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3504
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been able to settle on a single kind of primaries. I lean towards using the Naibod key, but I've tried several kinds of primaries with uneven results.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I've never been able to settle on a single kind of primaries. I lean towards using the Naibod key, but I've tried several kinds of primaries with uneven results.


hmmm, yeah thats the problem haha. I find it ironic that the most important tool in the astrologers toolbox is also the most controversial one :/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Martin Gansten
Moderator


Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1268
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AstroNovice wrote:
hmmm, yeah thats the problem haha. I find it ironic that the most important tool in the astrologers toolbox is also the most controversial one :/

I'm not sure it is -- reading Morin, the potential for controversy in almost any area seems inexhaustible. Wink Directions are mathematically somewhat complex, which makes for different models of understanding (rather like house systems); but in Morin's day the differences were still not that great. The major question, mathematically speaking, was whether to direct by semi-arcs or position circles, with Morin favouring the latter; but the directions of the angles will be the same in both systems. Also, Morin, like everyone else before the 19th century, directed only with the primary motion, never against it. Where Morin differed most from the 'old astrologers' that he often criticized was not in the mathematics but in his rejection of universal significators, of the terms, etc -- things that are not rooted in directions as such but rather in Morin's grand scheme of a reformed and 'streamlined' astrology.
_________________
http://www.martingansten.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AstroNovice wrote:
Tom wrote:
I've never been able to settle on a single kind of primaries. I lean towards using the Naibod key, but I've tried several kinds of primaries with uneven results.


hmmm, yeah thats the problem haha. I find it ironic that the most important tool in the astrologers toolbox is also the most controversial one :/


And a universal problem.
Precession value in Indian Jyotish.
The actual problem is in methods relating to timing of events.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3302
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:

The actual problem is in methods relating to timing of events.


or that the focus on symbolism and interpretation is lost/subjected to the dwelling on different methods which more often then not, all have relevance..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
AstroNovice wrote:
hmmm, yeah thats the problem haha. I find it ironic that the most important tool in the astrologers toolbox is also the most controversial one :/

I'm not sure it is -- reading Morin, the potential for controversy in almost any area seems inexhaustible. Wink Directions are mathematically somewhat complex, which makes for different models of understanding (rather like house systems); but in Morin's day the differences were still not that great. The major question, mathematically speaking, was whether to direct by semi-arcs or position circles, with Morin favouring the latter; but the directions of the angles will be the same in both systems. Also, Morin, like everyone else before the 19th century, directed only with the primary motion, never against it. Where Morin differed most from the 'old astrologers' that he often criticized was not in the mathematics but in his rejection of universal significators, of the terms, etc -- things that are not rooted in directions as such but rather in Morin's grand scheme of a reformed and 'streamlined' astrology.


ah....that could be contributing to my confusion, my utter inability to do math. I suppose for the time being then, naibod it is Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated