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Sun near Ascendant
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irisalbus wrote:

—Geoffrey: I hope to fish something with this can of worms :-) Are there answers to the questions you have put (as these are questions I ask myself as well)


I think that we can put Robert Hand's comments in a more quantitative form by looking at the definitions of 'twilight'. Once again, there is more than one kind of twilight, but typically they are:

Civil twilight: When the bright stars are still (or become) visible. The sun is 6 degrees below the celestial horizon.

Nautical twilight: The horizon is not visible (yet, or any more). The sun is 12 degrees below the horizon.

Astronomical twilight: Full night, the faintest stars are visible. The sun is 18 degrees below the horizon.

It is possible to see Jupiter, Venus and even Sirius in full daylight. Even Polaris can be seen with a small telescope if you know where to look (and the sky is very clear). So, I would discount civil twilight as being in accord with Robert Hand's comment.

But if you are no longer able to see the horizon, I would say that, "The Sun has set," and night time is upon us. Too, the new Moon only becomes visible once the sun has sunk about 6 degrees below the celestial horizon. This is very important to the Islamic faith as the new month - and typically Ramadan - only starts once the new Moon is sighted. It is apt, I think, that the Moon, a nocturnal body, should only show itself when night time has come. So, to me, nautical twilight is a good benchmark for when the day actually starts and ends.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
johannes susato wrote:

...
Is not the traditional - astrological - defnition of night and day that by the position of the Sun being below or above the true horizon, signified by the AC-DC Axis?

Did the ancients understand atmospheric refraction?

Irisalbus wrote:
I asked the question because I had always thought that the below/above the horizon distinction was clear enough, until I learnt there are certain differences.

The definition of a diurnal/nocturnal chart is clear (and simple), being defined by the Sun, without any consideration of twilight, or whether the Sun's disc/light can be seen. It simply rests on whether the chart is cast in the "daytime" or "nighttime". We know what the ancients meant by this because Ptolemy defines the period of day and night in his Almagest II.9. These are dependent upon the centre of the Sun's disc being aligned with the ascendant or descendant. So if the Sun is on, or 1 second of arc above, the ascendant, it is daytime and you have a diurnal chart; if it is on or 1 second below the descendant it is nighttime and you have a nocturnal chart.
Ptolemy also explains how this consideration is used in the determination of the seasonal (i.e., planetary) hours, so that the change from diurnal hours to nocturnal hours happens simultaneously with the alignment of the centre of the Sun's disc with the descendant (and vice versa).
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 970
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:
johannes susato wrote:

...
Is not the traditional - astrological - defnition of night and day that by the position of the Sun being below or above the true horizon, signified by the AC-DC Axis?

Did the ancients understand atmospheric refraction?

Irisalbus wrote:
I asked the question because I had always thought that the below/above the horizon distinction was clear enough, until I learnt there are certain differences.

The definition of a diurnal/nocturnal chart is clear (and simple), being defined by the Sun, without any consideration of twilight, or whether the Sun's disc/light can be seen. It simply rests on whether the chart is cast in the "daytime" or "nighttime". We know what the ancients meant by this because Ptolemy defines the period of day and night in his Almagest II.9. These are dependent upon the centre of the Sun's disc being aligned with the ascendant or descendant. So if the Sun is on, or 1 second of arc above, the ascendant, it is daytime and you have a diurnal chart; if it is on or 1 second below the descendant it is nighttime and you have a nocturnal chart.
Ptolemy also explains how this consideration is used in the determination of the seasonal (i.e., planetary) hours, so that the change from diurnal hours to nocturnal hours happens simultaneously with the alignment of the centre of the Sun's disc with the descendant (and vice versa).


OK. So now there is an option (F3 Main Options | Hellenistic | Sect) in Delphic Oracle to use either "ideal" or "apparent" sunrise/sunset, ideal being Sun conj Asc or above = diurnal; 'apparent" uses atmospheric refraction visible sunrise/sunset. Seems though for Ptolemy that this would be strangely un-Aristotelian / un-natural...

It will be up in a few days after updating the time zones...
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Chris Brennan



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 193
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

Ptolemy also explains how this consideration is used in the determination of the seasonal (i.e., planetary) hours, so that the change from diurnal hours to nocturnal hours happens simultaneously with the alignment of the centre of the Sun's disc with the descendant (and vice versa).



This is a really good point.
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Zagata



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 90

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi irisalbus,

What I learned from Robert Zoller. which has been proven right countless times since then in both delineations and predictions, is that it is only the chart that gives the most objective information about the native's life.

Therefore since you are studying traditional Astrology, study the chart itself and let the chart direct you. Moreover, in 99% of cases people do not know their exact time of birth or even within 5 minutes (the degree above/below the horizon), but the chart will easily show it to you. One of the best ways is to use the Firdaria technique. Since you even have the Ascendant it is very easy to determine whether the native was born during the day or night. The longer they have lived, the easier it is.
I wish you success in your studies. Smile

P.S. For night births make sure you use the sequence given by Bonatti (the Nodes between Mars and the Sun) because this is the correct one.
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irisalbus



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 99

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Zagata,

thank you for the reply adn the idea, I have not thought of the Firdaria as a rectification/verification method but will try it.
(As a sidenote, I use the nodes at the end of all the planets' periods as I was convinced of this by http://arhatmedia.com/firdar2.htm and http://www.astrologiamedieval.com/firdaria.htm )
I like the idea of "letting the chart direct me" but I am afraid I might misinterpret the directions Smile Joking apart, there could be elements different from being a day/night chart indicating similar things.
In the chart I mentioned, the Sun being above the horizon would also mean a different Ascendant (Taurus instead of Aries), which I consider quite improbable but now I have decided to take time to consider this different chart, as well.

Thanks again, Zagata and everybody.

Iris
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