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Aspect configurations that don't aspect any personal planets

 
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 740

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject: Aspect configurations that don't aspect any personal planets Reply with quote

I was looking at somebody's chart, though I didn't have a time of birth. What struck me was the powerful 90/180 degree aspects between Chiron, Uranus and Jupiter, a separate Mars Pluto and a separate Sun Phaethon. The absence of joined up aspects struck me, especially the Chiron, Uranus, Jupiter aspect not aspecting any personal planets.

And that Mars Pluto stuck on its own, not aspecting anything else in the chart, and the Sun Phaethon not aspecting anything else.

I have noticed these patterns in charts before and wondered how you interpret their meaning?

Maybe other people here don't think they are anything different, but from my observation, a powerful group of outer or middle planets aspecting each other but not any of the personal planets means something.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 518
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fleur,

What are your observations regarding this?
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

I'm not familiar with the term Sun Phaethon but if it is another term for the Sun then I may have a bit to add:

Planets with no Ptolemeic aspect (conjunction, sextile, trine, square, opposition) to another planet are called peregrine according to Noel Tyl. This, I believe, is not the same meaning as the word peregrine in traditional astrology where the unaspected planet would be called feral or wild.

Noel Tyl says that peregrine or feral planets "run away with the chart" - their influence on the individual is great especially if it is the Sun or the Moon. Here's a link:

http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/070831.html

I know two people who each have the Sun peregrine in Pisces and (if I remember correctly) both in the ninth house. Both of these people are acknowledged experts in their respective fields and in my opinion, tend to noticeably "stand out" even from other people who are highly skilled in those fields. They are much sought after as teachers.

Hope that helps!

Smile
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 740

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your comments, I kept meaning to come back to this, and I was going to post the chart of somebody in the news with this phenomenon - not the same chart as I was specifically thinking of.

This is a phenomenon I have noticed a lot and wonder about, and have never read an interpretation. When somebody has a massive aspect pattern of the outer or even middle planets that just doesn't link up with any aspects to their personal planets, or an important personal planet like the Sun not aspected to anything else in the chart, or not linked to the outer or middle planets.

(Maybe I am wrong, and this is just me, but I think of Jupiter and Saturn as the gates of matter and manifestation, ruling the physical world, money, time, etc., and Chiron and Uranus as another gate, then the true outers are Neptune, Pluto and IsisTranspluto, the real power behind everything that happens, which gets manifested through the two gates, to the personal planets. An example is a musician I really like who has Neptune aspecting Chiron, Jupiter and Mars, and also his Moons Nodes, I see this as a very typical musician's aspect pattern, especially rock, the power of Neptune coming through and ultimately being expressed through the personal planet Mars. I did wonder if energies, big outer planet aspect patterns, that fail to connect with personal planets can get trapped, or are vulnerable to being manipulated by other people with personal planets which aspect them).

I will try to post more when I can gather my thoughts better.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that somebody without any classical aspects of the visible planets to the Transsaturnians has less of a connection of their conscious personality to unconscious forces. They might have a strong influence nevertheless - and difficult to deal with.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:

Quote:
This is a phenomenon I have noticed a lot and wonder about, and have never read an interpretation. When somebody has a massive aspect pattern of the outer or even middle planets that just doesn't link up with any aspects to their personal planets, or an important personal planet like the Sun not aspected to anything else in the chart, or not linked to the outer or middle planets.


I guess thats me. I have a kite formation involving Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. The ASC and MC and DESC are also tied into this aspect pattern by partile conjunction. Chiron is located exactly midpoint my ASC and MC.

But my Sun is unaspected excluding a quintile to Uranus. I suppose at a stretch we could use the term some traditional sources call a 'feral' planet. Although its usually reserved for the Moon when it forms no aspects whatsover during its progress through a sign. A very rare situation.

I refuse to use Tyl's mistaken term 'peregrine' as you dont get away with rebranding the use of an ancient astrological term just because you say so loudly and your students are kept ignorant of the word's real meaning.

With my Sun in Aquarius its in its sign of detriment. Still, its a day chart and the Sun is well placed by House (Whole Sign/Porphyry/Alcabitius-10th), (Regiomontanus/Placidus-11th) Equal is the only system placing it in the 9th. Although I have my MC, Mercury and Venus in the 9th by WSH.

This issue of 'singleton planets' has come up before in this old thread. There are some good traditional sources cited by Tom there. As you will see for traditional astrologers 'feral' planets were generally weak/insignificant and certainly not 'running away with the chart' as Noel Tyl suggests.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=757

However, as Anthony Louis points out the French 17th century astrologer Morin seems to expand the traditional use of the term ''feral planet''.

Louis states:
Quote:
Morinus uses the term in Book 21, Chapter XII, point 5) where he defines "feral" as unaspected. According to Morin, a feral planet does not conjoin or receive an aspect from any other planet in the chart. Thus it's influence shows a greater purity in terms of its essential nature and it indicates something unusual for good or for ill, depending on the nature of the planet.


This might be the origin of modern ideas on unaspected planets.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3306
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark, back in the classical era of astrology would a 10 degree orb between sun and jupiter count as an aspect? if folks are going to come up with these terms of what a classical aspect is, while ignoring the more recent ones including quintile type ones, i wonder if this concept feral, or peregrine isn't some other form of horary hoodoo that one might use in horary, but not in natal? just speculating here..
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
mark, back in the classical era of astrology would a 10 degree orb between sun and jupiter count as an aspect?


lol. Ok James you have seen my chart! And yes I do have a natal square between the Sun and Jupiter using traditional orbs. But most moderns that look at my chart dont count it as its just over 10 degrees. I was playing along with the approach I asssumed most modern astrologers use here which seems to generate concern over unaspected planets within modern orbs.

Personally I dont use modern orbs, non-ptolemaic aspects or points like Chiron, asteroids, centaurs, Black Moon Lillth, Vertex, Sabian symbols etc. But I am happy to discuss these features in my chart or others in a comparative sense. Over the years I have chaired loads of astrological speakers at my Association that work very differently for example CPA trained, Huberists, Tyl students, Esoteric astrologers. I always regard such situations as an opportunity for astrological tourism. Its not where I want to be 24/7 but its fun seeing how others do things!

Quote:
i wonder if this concept feral, or peregrine isn't some other form of horary hoodoo that one might use in horary, but not in natal? just speculating here.


The term feral was very rare in its traditional use so from a practical point of view I would only really look at it for the Moon in horary or electional charts. Such a Moon is void.

But the traditional term peregrine is definitely not some 'horary hoodoo' as you put it. Its a definition of a planet that lacks any essential dignity by sign placement. An important consideration for working traditionally whether in natal, horary, electional or mundane. Of course if you choose to work with modern techniques its irrelevant like all the the building blocks of traditional chart delineation. Its a matter of choice like everything else.

What irritates me about some modern astrologers use of the term peregrine is that they dont understand its original meaning. Noel Tyl could have saved himself and his students a lot of criticism if he had just used another term for the new concept he was proposing.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

great to see you back here, even if it is only for a few posts! i agree with your whole post.. i like that term 'astrological tourism'... i think that defines a lot of the astrological community who continue to search for different and new ways of understanding astrology. studying modern or traditional is learning more about astrology.

i think the different approaches all have something of value to offer, while they probably all have pitfalls to them too which are especially hard for new students to astrology to appreciate, or avoid.. noel tyls use of the term peregrine is a good example of this.. expropriating the term from the past and giving it a new meaning creates more confusion and ambiguity.. thanks for clarifying and reminding me of the use of this term in the context of how it was used previously and how it is used still by some..

one approach that i thought had a lot of insight which is more modern in approach that doesn't seem to be as well known as i thought it would be is marc edmund jones planetary patterns or shapes.. this will address planets in a different and more visual manner that is often overlooked by many astrologers.. some charts are better examples of this approach then others, but i think it can help an astrologer better understand a chart, especially when one planet may stand out apart from all the others, whether inside a traditional aspect set or not - especially not..

maybe i can provide an example, but i am going to have to do some quick research to find one as i can't think of any of the top of my head.. if one doesn't work with the outer planets, it is easier to find an example.. right now all the planets are contained within an area less then 90 degrees, if one excludes the outers.. every time the moon moves in the area opposite this bundle of planets from jupiter in mid virgo to saturn in early sag, the moon functions as a type of singleton planet outside this bundle especially as it moves towards the opposition, or in the area surrounding the opposition to the midpoint of the bundle.. i think the moon takes on much greater importance when it is in this area of opposition to the bundle..

just using the traditional planets, obamas chart could be used as an example of a planetary couple - jupiter/saturn that stand out in opposition to the rest of the chart. i think his involvement in politics is very fitting given this set up. and, i would think his leadership would be very influenced by any transits or directions to these 2 planets that are in a 5 degree out of sign conjunction... both planets form a nice 120 to the two planets - moon and mars that are on the outside of the area where all other planets are - again excluding the outers here.. i think he has managed to appeal to a lot of people in many ways, in spite of the obstacles he has faced as president of the usa. i think he has been pushed and pulled any number of ways by the cross currents within the us system, but he has managed to put up a pretty good front, as front man for where the buck does ultimately stop - president of the usa..

going back to the topic of the thread - aspect patterns that don't aspect any personal planets - i think putting aspects on the top of the hierarchy of astrological considerations leads to these kinds of questions.. another question for me might be - are aspects the be all and end all in astrology? where do you draw the line with aspects - major, verses minor and where do you draw the line with the amount of planets, asteroids and etc. etc. that you allow into the picture? so many considerations are relatively subjective as i see it, makes it difficult for others to answer these kinds of questions, as they will often come to a different answer to these basic questions, and values.. ultimately astrology has a much greater degree of subjectivity to it then many want to acknowledge or consider.. once one does they are left with unanswered questions, or questions they have to answer individually for themselves..
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

Re: feral/wild:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/feral.html


Re: unaspected planets with some examples:

http://www.astrotheme.com/files/unaspected_planets.php


Gleaning through a few charts that I had 'collected' for something else I found some examples of unaspected planets:

Marcia Cross - Venus/Aries/10
Mel Gibson - Venus/Aquarius/8
Glen Campbell - Venus/Aries/5 (inconjunct)

Carrie Fisher - Mercury/Libra/8 (inconjunct)

Sonny Bono - Moon/Leo/10

Natasha Richardson - Jupiter/Aries/6 (inconjunct)

Karen Carpenter - Uranus/Cancer/AC
Temple Grandin - Uranus/Gemini/7
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

As well, Tina Fey has conjunct Saturn-Mercury/Taurus/10.

All of the above charts can be Googled for a quick look.



Two serial killers might be of interest:

Robert Hansen
15 Februrary 1939/time unknown
Estherville, Iowa
USA

has Pluto/Cancer unaspected as well as a conjunction of Sun-Mercury/Aquarius unaspected (depending on the orb) other than an inconjunct.

Jake Bird
14 December 1901/time unknown
Louisiana USA
(entered as New Orleans)

has three planets conjunct: Saturn/Mars/Jupiter in Capricorn making only an inconjunct to Pluto.

As for hoodoo, it seems Mr. Bird may have been a practictioner: he placed a "hex" on those reponsible for his punishment - six of whom died within a year of his sentencing. Shocked

There are a handful of other serial killers (US/Canada)(male) with single planets unaspected.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 163
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fleur:

I was scrolling through the previous years' posts and came across one from 21 Nov 2003 on unaspected planets from the Traditional forum:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=228

In it Ben Dykes refers to Morinus stating that feral Saturn in the 1st house makes the native a monk or a hermit.

I would be interested to know what he says about the 10th house as Emily Dickinson, American poet, has unaspected Saturn in the 10th (it is conjunct MC and trine Chiron) and was known for her reclusiveness. Chart at ADB.

Regards
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