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Skyscript Astrology Forum

My theory for why solar returns cannot be relocated
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Becca wrote:
AstroNovice

Okay.

So basically, what I'm trying to say is that if one probable circumstance is not accessible to a placement, it will find an alternative outlet.

Imagine a man who, for years, works as a web developer in London. He relocates to live in Ireland with no opportunities to continue in this field but with an 11thH Mercury placement still imprinted on the chart, although shifted into the 12thH using, say, the Placidus house system, is left to be channeled through a suitable outlet. An alternative might be no longer writing HTML codes for a software company but he instead writes movie scripts for a theather company. Mercury remains intact but unravels in a different house, through a different-ish circumstance.

Confused I don't know, is this the sort of answer you were hoping for to get clarity?


I am not as comfortable with natal astrology and I am struggling to communicate with and express this to you. Its very frustrating. This is why I edited and deleted my other post so many times, sorry.


The bolded part of what you say is true, but I believe it operates outside of astrology. Obviously different circumstances presented by being in a different location/culture/whatever are going to cause you to have a different experience, I am of the opinion that relocating a solar return chart/natal chart has very little to do with this process. (although of course others may disagree with me.) Although assuming that relocation is a valid concept though, I would say that your understanding of it as seen from your example would probably be correct.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Astro Novice,

Your thoughtful post was timely as I recently relocated myself on my birthday, for the second time in my life.

I agree with your view that solar returns have a cyclical quality. But I don't see that there is any logic to it, in the true sense of the word. Logic says that the truth of something lies in the premises--there is no need to gather empirical evidence. Astrology is not a logical study, like mathematics. We look for the truth in astrology in experience--to the world. We look for rationality there. While the cyclical nature of solar returns looks rational, that doesn't mean it can't be altered.

I never could see the harm in taking a birthday holiday to get a solar return stellium out of the 12th house, and I wonder that more people with the means to do it don't give it a try, instead of scolding people who do for being a nutter, as if studying astrology doesn't make you a nutter in the world's eyes as it is. Not that YOU scolded, far from it, and thanks for bringing up the subject in such a respectful way.
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donna Chang wrote:
Hi Astro Novice,

Your thoughtful post was timely as I recently relocated myself on my birthday, for the second time in my life.

I agree with your view that solar returns have a cyclical quality. But I don't see that there is any logic to it, in the true sense of the word. Logic says that the truth of something lies in the premises--there is no need to gather empirical evidence. Astrology is not a logical study, like mathematics. We look for the truth in astrology in experience--to the world. We look for rationality there. While the cyclical nature of solar returns looks rational, that doesn't mean it can't be altered.

I never could see the harm in taking a birthday holiday to get a solar return stellium out of the 12th house, and I wonder that more people with the means to do it don't give it a try, instead of scolding people who do for being a nutter, as if studying astrology doesn't make you a nutter in the world's eyes as it is. Not that YOU scolded, far from it, and thanks for bringing up the subject in such a respectful way.


Hi donna, thanks for your response. I think its possible that my idea of why solar returns cannot be relocated may actually conform a little bit with what you have written here. As you stated, you believe that astrology is not a rational science, and this is true. I agree with that, astrology is very much symbolic and metaphysical. It is because of that reason that I believe that solar returns are not actually a "real"/"rational" process, rather it is entirely symbolic. My idea is a little bit hard to put into words, but I will try my best. Basically, I believe that all of the solar return cycles for every year of our life was already set into stone when we were born. Thus I feel that the solar return cycle is more of an internal, subjective occurrence as opposed to being dependent on external occurrence. (the real life transiting sun, and your current location) Thus IMO, there is nothing special about the actual sun in the sky returning to its natal location, and this is because internally the cycle has already been set. In much the same way that transits can be predicted 1000's of years into the future, so can "internal cycles" already be set and accounted for the duration of our lives. In my opinion though, it all comes down to whether or not the planets are a causal force or a correlative force. If the currently transiting planets are only a correlative influence/physical avatar for developments happening in the astral/spiritual/internal plane, then my theory makes perfect sense. However if the currently transiting physical planets are actually a causative force in and amongst themselves then I suppose that it might make sense to relocate solar return charts.

Phew, my head hurts. To be honest I feel a little bit confused now too. I hope what I wrote makes a little bit of sense. But yes, I agree that experience and experimentation is the most important thing.
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melqart



Joined: 26 Mar 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Brasil

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello.

Sorry for resurrecting a thread long dead, but this is exactly the question I've been spending my days researching and thinking about lately.

First off, I just got into Solar Return charts this year, so I never intentionally relocated an SR in order to avoid the fate my birthplace SR chart would bring. I did, though, unintentionally relocated one, and this is mainly what brought me here.

In my 29th birthday I relocated 700km westwards to visit my father. This was just enough to make the SR Ascendant to be pushed away from the 1st into the 12th house. As most of them were very, very personal, I can't really make a list of how many bad events happened in that cursed year, but trust me, it was really bad. Even the police and the IRS tried to arrest me and some of my possessions and money, without any legit reason to do so. And these were the lesser problems I had. The general feeling of that year was of complete and absolute desolation and ruin. I anything I did, I felt like I was watching myself rotting and dying slowly.

Please note that I didn't live the rest of the year in the place I had my SR. In the place I live, the SR Ascendant would be placed in the 1st house. I have had some 1st house SR's before and I'm pretty positive that although both are very hard, the general feeling is very, very different among them. The 1st house SR makes me feel like a weak, tiny ant, having to fight with all its might to work its way into being noted. A 12th house SR makes me feel like the spirit of a dead man having the chance of watching (and taking notes for eternity of) an imaginary movie about his last moments in life.

Another thing I should say is that I believe relocation really works. I know this from my father's chart, who was born in Italy but relocated to Brazil in his early childhood. This caused his natal 11th house Jupiter-Mercury-Uranus stellium to be moved into the second house of the Relocation chart. His entire life has been about huge amounts of money (Jupiter), both incoming and outgoing in an unending instability (Uranus), and this is all he talks and seems to care and think about all day long (Mercury).

That said, I can't say for sure relocating SR's really works, because I never did it intentionally, but I will sure try it, whatever it takes, in the next time I face a 12th/1st/6th/7th house SR.
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lifestudent



Joined: 27 Nov 2013
Posts: 96
Location: Earth

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relocation SR charts will only affect you as long as you stay in that relocation. If you just go there for a few weeks around your birthday, then your SR chart back home will affect you as soon as you are back home.

It is the angles we need to look at. I've never looked at it in the house sense of way, but rather looked into which planets become angular to relocated angles within the mundoscope (real placement of planets at the location measured).
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
Posts: 43

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lifestudent wrote:
Relocation SR charts will only affect you as long as you stay in that relocation. If you just go there for a few weeks around your birthday, then your SR chart back home will affect you as soon as you are back home.

It is the angles we need to look at. I've never looked at it in the house sense of way, but rather looked into which planets become angular to relocated angles within the mundoscope (real placement of planets at the location measured).



That is up to debate.


Raymond Merriman actually believes the opposite.
He even likens it to Feng Shui.
I read his book on Solar Returns
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a consultation with a well known traditional astrologer regarding relocation. I was playing around one day and saw an unbelievably nasty solar return in my future. Primary directions bad, secondary bad, hyleg involved. Terminal. I asked one question, "would you get the hell outta dodge for your birthday if it was you?"
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi donna,

all of us are curious of what the 'traditional' astrologers response was!

i think the most important consideration in any solar return is in how it relates back to the natal chart.. something might look nasty, but it needs back up in the natal chart.. a solar return chart is never a stand alone chart.. you probably know this, but i think it is worth re-iterating for any others who are reading this thread..

i think the other thing i've noticed which has nothing to do with solar return charts is this. in the psychology of many people using astrology is a desire to know the future as a way of being able to 'control' the future.. perhaps this is possible in so far as a person gets to know themselves in the fullest sense possible.. i am not convinced of our ability to change our solar return by temporarily relocating on our birthday for a brief moment in time. or, you might be able to change the relo sr, but it doesn't change what the natal chart suggests.

life always unfolds in ways we can't know about in advance, or in unexpected ways that the astrological symbolism usually only hints at.. this might also explain why their are so many astrologers with different views on the future who can be wrong, right or only partly on track with all of it.. i think this is worth keeping in mind when we look at the astrology, whether one uses relocation data or not.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 88
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,
You make important points about the natal chart and solar return interpretation as well as not becoming obsessed with prediction.

On the other hand, we are studying a system that is essentially predictive, yet there is an odd reaction with many astrologers when we talk about predicting death, or disaster, or attempts to avoid these things. Suddenly everyone gets very nervous. Sometimes with subjects like death or relocation, astrologers even get angry. It makes me wonder who has the issue here. I'm fascinated with the possibility that one can alter the course of events. Maybe it's futile, but it's not as specious as calling death "transformation" or "rebirth". And if someone tells me not to go there, I go there.

His response to my question came after he concurred that the year in question was indeed extremely dangerous and that relocating was a sensible action.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi donna,

you make good points too! i see it as the eternal question of fate verses free will with individuals coming down on this question in a myriad of ways.. in the past, especially going back many hundreds of years, i think people had a more fatalistic view on life.. i could be wrong, but that is what i get from reading.. as people have been able to extend life thru the use of technology and etc, a different view has been in the ascendancy.. these 2 views are always competing with one another..

i like your comment "if someone tells me not to go there, I go there." reminds me of my own orientation in some respects!

thanks for answering my question, but it has only raised a number of other questions which i won't labour you with!! cheers james
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 273
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent my birthday & s/r in Oakland/Berkeley CA and flashes of the experience keep wafting by ... given the intensity of the actual occasion, a solar return can be considered a renewal of spirit -- I think the California angles to be operant this year ...
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 968
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think relocations do work, but the natal chart return will sometimes be more valid depending upon some unknown circumstances so I usually look at both. When I was 21, my natal angles returned to the degree on my birthday. I didn't plan for it to happen and it would have been impossible for it to happen at that age without relocation. At the same time Jupiter and Mars were conjunct my ascendant to the degree by transit. It's the year that made me who I am now and I consider that time extremely fated for me. Not all periods in life are like that, but that was a time that I call a "fate bottleneck".
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