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Islamic Caliphate Declared by ISIS
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carriere.francois



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

A Belgian friend, Marie-Christine Sclifet gave me a link to Robert Hand's Facebook paper on ISIS, where he discuss a different chart. May be it can help solve the actual discussion on Skyscript.

https://www.facebook.com/robert.hand.98284/photos/a.397431563712993.1073741828.378313608958122/538849796237835/?type=1
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

carriere.francois

if you know how to cut and paste, it would be very helpful, as facebook is not universal and requires a sign in - something some of us are loath to do.. alternatively, you could provide the data as that is what most folks here are interested in. thanks.
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carriere.francois



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

Robert Hand's paper is public. Just click the link and you will have access to it.
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ModWasp



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am currently in discussion with Robert Hand concerning that chart, i personally don't think it's correct - and i believe he got it from this thread in the first place Shocked
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Franois!

yes - ditto nathans comments on the validity of the chart. mark and i discussed this privately in the past week too. that chart is no longer valid as i see it.
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ModWasp



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the video of Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi addressing his followers for the first time in public at Friday Prayers - rather conveniently, there's a clock on the wall.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10948480/Islamic-State-leader-Abu-Bakr-al-Baghdadi-addresses-Muslims-in-Mosul.html
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathan wrote
Quote:
I am currently in discussion with Robert Hand concerning that chart, i personally don't think it's correct - and i believe he got it from this thread in the first place


Yes I have joined that Facebook discussion too. Noone here actually posted the chart. But I put up a link to a piece on Paul Saunders, Solaris Astrology site where it was displayed. I was more motivated in identifying a chart for the Caliphate than a foudation chart for ISIS. Paul Saunders piece included a chart for the video release announcing the Caliphate and a foundation chart for ISIS from April 2013. I have no idea how he could have derived an accurate time for that latter chart.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
yes - ditto nathans comments on the validity of the chart. mark and i discussed this privately in the past week too. that chart is no longer valid as i see it.


I think Carriere is discussing the foundation chart for ISIS (April 2013) suggested by Robert Hand not the chart for the inception of the Caliphate.

Perhaps we need to make clear what they are discussing here i.e. the chart for ISIS or the Caliphate.

As I stated above though that particular version of the ISIS foundation chart was first put up by Paul Saunders. Robert Hand seems to have adopted this chart for the foundation of ISIS. I have doubts about both the date and time used.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my comment in agreement with nathan was about any relevance to the april 2014 chart for isis. i don't think there is any to it.. we talked about some of these dates on this thread in the past few weeks ago as well
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8331
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering all the discussion of a chart for the Islamic Caliphate I suppose its overdue to post up the proposed charts for ISIS here too as this thread seems to be getting more attention than our IRAQ & Syria thread now. Throughout the history of the organization now known as ISIL (or ISIS), the group has used many different names and it has also morphed several times through mergers with other groups.

The following information is derived from the Wikipedia entry on ISIS

Name and name changes

2004

The group has used several different names since its formation in early 2004 as Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād, "The Organization of Monotheism and Jihad" (JTJ). No date for foundation.

In October 2004, the group's leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi swore loyalty to Osama bin Laden and changed the name of the group to Tanẓīm Qāʻidat al-Jihād fī Bilād al-Rāfidayn, "The Organization of Jihad's Base in the Country of the Two Rivers" (TQJBR), more commonly known as "Al-Qaeda in Iraq" (AQI).

Although the group has never called itself "Al-Qaeda in Iraq", this name has frequently been used to describe it through its various incarnations.

2006

In January 2006, AQI merged with several smaller Iraqi insurgent groups under an umbrella organization called the "Mujahideen Shura Council". This was little more than a media exercise and an attempt to give the group a more Iraqi flavour and perhaps distance al-Qaeda from some of al-Zarqawi's tactical errors, notably the 2005 bombings by AQI of three hotels in Amman. Al-Zarqawi was killed in June 2006, after which the group's direction shifted again.

On 12 October 2006, the Mujahideen Shura Council joined four more insurgent factions and the representatives of a number of Iraqi tribes, and together they swore the traditional Arab oath of allegiance known as Ḥilf al-Muṭayyabīn ("Oath of the Scented Ones"). During the ceremony, the participants swore to free Iraq's Sunnis of what they described as Shia and foreign oppression, and to further the name of Allah and restore Islam to glory.

On 13 October 2006, the establishment of the Dawlat al-ʻIraq al-Islāmīyah, "'Islamic State of Iraq" (ISI) was announced. A cabinet was formed and Abu Abdullah al-Rashid al-Baghdadi became ISIS's figurehead emir, the real power residing with the Egyptian Abu Ayyub al-Masri. The declaration was met with hostile criticism from not only ISI's jihadist rivals in Iraq, but from leading jihadist ideologues outside the country as well. Al-Baghdadi and al-Masri were both killed in a US and Iraqi operation in April 2010. The next leader of the ISI was Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the current leader of ISIS.

2013

On 9 April 2013, having expanded into Syria, the group adopted the name "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant", also known as "Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham".

The name is abbreviated as ISIS or alternately ISIL. The final "S" in the acronym ISIS stems from the Arabic word Shām (or Shaam), which in the context of global jihad refers to the Levant or Greater Syria.

ISIS is also known as al-Dawlah ("the State"), or al-Dawlah al-Islāmīyah ("the Islamic State"). Its detractors refer to it using the Arabic acronym Dāʻish, a term that the group considers derogatory. ISIS reportedly uses flogging as a punishment for people who use the acronym.

On 14 May 2014, the US State Department announced its decision to use "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL) as the group's primary name.The current debate over which acronym should be used to designate the group, ISIL or ISIS, has been discussed by several commentators. Ishaan Tharoor from The Washington Post concluded: "In the larger battlefield of copy style controversies, the distinction between ISIS or ISIL is not so great."

On 29 June 2014, the establishment of a new caliphate was announced, with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi named as caliph, and the group formally changed its name to "Islamic State".

It seems to me there are a few plausible dates here. Two in particular are derived from 13th October 2006 and 9th Aril 2013.

The 2006 chart for ISIS

One could certainly take the view that the 13th of October 2006 seems the most pivotal date for the present incarnation of this group. From this perspective the name change of the group that occurred in April 9th 2013 is not fundamental enough to base a new chart on. The UK astrologer Marjorie Orr has adopted this approach and has been working with a foundation chart for ISIS from October 2006.


The 2013 chart for ISIS

Supporters of the April 9th 2013 chart could argue this chart is not just symbolic of a name change. It represents a fundamental change of the operational scope of the group from an exclusively Iraqi one to one seeking to set up a state within the borders of Iraq and Syria. ISIS became intrinsically caught up in the Syrian civil war. Moreover, this all occured under Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the current leader of ISIS and the caliph of the newly-declared caliphate.

_____________________________________________________________

To be even handed I will display both charts. Although, I confess I favour the 2006 timing myself. I have read that the 2013 renaming was a formal announcement by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. He apparently declared in Aleppo, Syria, that from that moment on he considered the Islamic State of Iraq co-existent with the Syrian Al Qaeda branch, effectively changing the ISI (Islamic Sate of Iraq) to the ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria). -

Locating the 2006 has been trickier as the movement were more underground at that point. Its unclear where the 2006 announcement came from. However, I note that both the original leaders of ISIS Abu Abdullah al-Rashid al-Baghdadi and Abu Ayyub al-Masri were killed in the northern Iraqi town of Tikrit in 2010. It seems logical therefore to assume Tikrit was probably an operational base for ISIS in 2006. Intriguingly, Tikrit was the birthplace of Sadaam Hussein and a centre of Sunni opposition to both the US occupation and the Shia dominated government in Baghdad.






Data note: The astrologer Paul Saunders, on his site Solaris Astrology cites a time of 10:45AM local time (21 Cancer rising) for the 2013 chart.

These comments are from his website:

Quote:
The chart I have here is from Astrologer Gary Lorentzen who cast one for an announcement by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the rebels. He declared in Aleppo, Syria, that from that moment on he considered the Islamic State of Iraq co-existent with the Syrian Al Qaeda branch, effectively changing the ISI (Islamic Sate of Iraq) to the ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria).


I dont know if this time cited by Gary Lorentzen has been authenticated by anyone with knowledge of Arabic? I note Robert Hand is already running with this chart. However, until I see an authenticated source time for this chart I will display it as noon here.

The flip over between a Libra and Aries emphasis in the two charts is interesting with the Sun in the 2006 chart in exact opposition to the 2013 Sun. Mars is also close to exact opposition.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks for doing all this. i had thought we talked about the different ISIS charts here before, but maybe it was in a private conversation only. i appreciate your pointing out the general chart marjorie orr is working with. it is unfortunate we don't have specific times or locations, but it is interesting the parallels that one can see between not only these 2 charts, but some other ones too that have to do with islam.

perhaps we could discuss the islamic calendar and what a chart for the origin of this calendar would look like too. i have one set for sunset july 16 622 mecca, sa. i am not sure how i arrived at this date..

i too favour the oct 2006 chart over the april 2013 one as i think it has more meaning and relevance. i know we had talked about this chart before, perhaps under the mars in libra thread given the conjunction of mars/sun in libra in the 2006 chart and the rise of isis from relative obscurity into full blown propaganda mode in the past few months. this all coincides with the transit of mars in libra. i suppose if one was to lean on profections, the position of the trio of venus/sun/mars in libra would fall in aries at present up until this october 2014..

i think the jupiter/mercury conjunction in the 2nd solar house suggests the healthy hidden resource base that also seems to be a feature of this group. whether that is qatar, saudi arabia and a few other countries that would prefer to remain unknown helping to fund a terrorist organization to cause havoc in iraq and syria, it seems obvious their is no shortage of money to continue this group financially. until the ideological basis for this organization is seen as the fiction that many in the islamic world must recognize it to be - having the audacity to set up the facade of a caliphate ( something i want to discuss with the caliphate chart later) i think the money will continue to flow into isis coffers.. i am looking at the t square with jupiter/mercury conjunct sitting on top the neptune/saturn opposition. this structure implies some of what i talk about here.. these are castles built on sand which is a common enough site in the mid east!!

i don't feel like saying too much more on the chart, given we have a generalized time for it.

maybe i can talk about the june 29th caliphate chart set to 5:05am for a moment. i like this chart as an election time for a new religion, or caliphate, even if it is a fiction. the thing about religion is it is a bit like love where illusion blends into it in an imperceptible but obvious manner. the exact sun trine neptune from ascendant to 9th house certainly is suggestive of the start of some religious activity. this is backed up with the moon in an exact conjunction to jupiter in cancer and ruler of the midheaven in pisces as well.. however the sun in opposition to pluto across the ascendant/descendant axis also highlights how this new caliphate is going to be perceived by a number of religious scholars and groups of followers of islam too. they are going to see it as a power grab and start voicing this publicly - they already are!

i think it's a good astro set up to help attract a fanatical young group of individuals looking to believe in something that ultimately spells more bloodshed and murder then it does anything to do with religion, but hey - it's religion, lol.. unlike the isis 2006, we have a racy grand square involving the flashy, dangerous, accident prone mars/uranus opposition, squaring onto the extreme sun/pluto opposition.. let me break it down a bit more.. for those who ignore the outer 2, it is sun approaching a square to mars in detriment in libra, brought together more strongly by hitting the sun/moon midpoint, while the uranus/pluto square speaks of a fanatical conflict of priorities that can't find an easy answer to the clash and will resort to some form of intolerance as opposed to seeking balance and harmony.. uranus also sits exactly on the sun/moon midpoint via the square.. seeking to upend any previous system or structure in place whether it be a geographical or religious border would seem to be specialty of uranus in aries which dominates the cancer planets here.. perhaps this is also partial explanation for the heavy reliance on technology for releasing the news of this event as well..

going a bit deeper into the chart, the jupiter/moon conjunct is on the neptune/midheaven midpoint by the 135 aspect. i think this reinforces the religious theme, or illusion theme - depending on your perspective..

venus is an interesting consideration here as well as it exactly squares onto neptune, while also landing on a number of important midpoints. is there is some romantic type of quality this annoucement of a new caliphate? venus is the warrior goddess when rising ahead of the sun as it does here. the idea of sacrificing one's actions and life with the goal of serving a religion would also help articulate the illusion- ary nature of this placement. this would be the exalted ruler of the pisces midheaven as well, positioned in the 12th house of service or sacrifice to something greater, however much it would be considered an illusion or reality..
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

Quote:
mark,
thanks for doing all this. i had thought we talked about the different ISIS charts here before, but maybe it was in a private conversation only. i appreciate your pointing out the general chart marjorie orr is working with. it is unfortunate we don't have specific times or locations, but it is interesting the parallels that one can see between not only these 2 charts, but some other ones too that have to do with islam.


I know you have discussed the October 2006 chart before on the Iraq-Syria 2014 thread but I thought since Robert Hand has displayed the April 2013 chart now we better discuss both here.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
perhaps we could discuss the islamic calendar and what a chart for the origin of this calendar would look like too. i have one set for sunset july 16 622 mecca, sa. i am not sure how i arrived at this date..


Your raising a really enormous topic here James which due to its complexity and controversy I would prefer to keep off this thread. This chart for the Islamic calendar has (I believe wrongly) been used as a chart for Islam by astrologers like Juan Revilla. The American astrologer Michael O'Reilly has gone even further and called this a 'birthchart' for Islam which I feel is a completely nonsensical position. I have argued against the historical validity of this as an inceptional moment for Islam with Juan Revilla here at great length on Skyscript.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=53402

I have now researched some other charts for Islam. I plan to display these and list numerous historical dates in the history of Islam. I will therefore be updating that old thread when time allows.

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i too favour the oct 2006 chart over the april 2013 one as i think it has more meaning and relevance. i know we had talked about this chart before, perhaps under the mars in libra thread given the conjunction of mars/sun in libra in the 2006 chart and the rise of isis from relative obscurity into full blown propaganda mode in the past few months. this all coincides with the transit of mars in libra. i suppose if one was to lean on profections, the position of the trio of venus/sun/mars in libra would fall in aries at present up until this october 2014..


mmmI think I will avoid discussing profections without timed data. lol

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i think the jupiter/mercury conjunction in the 2nd solar house suggests the healthy hidden resource base that also seems to be a feature of this group. whether that is qatar, saudi arabia and a few other countries that would prefer to remain unknown helping to fund a terrorist organization to cause havoc in iraq and syria, it seems obvious their is no shortage of money to continue this group financially. until the ideological basis for this organization is seen as the fiction that many in the islamic world must recognize it to be - having the audacity to set up the facade of a caliphate ( something i want to discuss with the caliphate chart later) i think the money will continue to flow into isis coffers.. i am looking at the t square with jupiter/mercury conjunct sitting on top the neptune/saturn opposition. this structure implies some of what i talk about here.. these are castles built on sand which is a common enough site in the mid east!!


Good idea to look at an untimed chart like this with whole sign solar houses!

James_M wrote:
Quote:
maybe i can talk about the june 29th caliphate chart set to 5:05am for a moment. i like this chart as an election time for a new religion, or caliphate,


Sure. We should discuss this chart. As astrologers we can hardly resist discussing any timed chart! Its certainly represents something. Whether it marks the inception of the Caliphate is a matter of debate. I actually managed to access a tweet with the link Nathan provided going back to 05:21AM on June 29th. However, after putting it through google translate all I could get was a one line sentence which said something to the effect

''The Promise of Islam, Caliphate in Iraq and Levant.''

Personally, I think this might be seen as a promo for the video release later that day. The video was entitled 'The Promise of Islam'. I therefore think the chart displayed at the beginning of this thread may still be fairly viable as a chart for the video release. Internationally, I doubt the world would have noticed this Caliphate announcement with just a tweet. ISIS have been declaring a Caliphate before. For example in the city of Fallujah in January this year. However, media around the world only sat up and became aware of any announcement with the video release.

I keep thinking of the founding of Communist China as a comparison. The chart commonly used is not when the Communists took de facto control of Beijing but when Mao Zedong announced the formation of the People's Republic to the wider world by radio. Personally, I think the video release fits this kind of analogy better than a one sentence tweet. Its true celebrations had begun from early morning in Ar-Raqqah but I think the rest of the world would have completely ignored this without the video release.

James_M wrote
Quote:
i think it's a good astro set up to help attract a fanatical young group of individuals looking to believe in something that ultimately spells more bloodshed and murder then it does anything to do with religion, but hey - it's religion, lol.


Well we are astrologers so we inevitably see such symbolism exactly fitting the facts. The 5:00PM chart for the video release does the same.

Quote:
Venus is an interesting consideration here as well as it exactly squares onto neptune, while also landing on a number of important midpoints. is there is some romantic type of quality this annoucement of a new caliphate? venus is the warrior goddess when rising ahead of the sun as it does here. the idea of sacrificing one's actions and life with the goal of serving a religion would also help articulate the illusion- airy nature of this placement. this would be the exalted ruler of the pisces midheaven as well, positioned in the 12th house of service or sacrifice to something greater, however much it would be considered an illusion or reality..


Its very interesting you pick up Venus here. Historically, Islamic astrologers considered their religion connected to Venus. I have actually, found some vindication for this view in the charts I have been working on recently for the foundation of Islam.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

i trust robert hand will do some due diligence and dig a little deeper, lol..

lets start a new thread on islam then, as opposed to creating a monster here! thanks for sharing that thread here. i can't remember if i was aware of it or not. i was mostly considering the jupiter/neptune opposition in the 622 chart which happens to be on about the same spot as neptune in the caliphate chart.. the 21/22 aries pluto position in relation to these charts we are considering for isis is also interesting.

i am conflicted on your attachment to the 5pm via the video chart, as i have some attachment to it too, but i think sharing by tweet is as relevant as sharing by video. i know this is how the information world works at present... even if we don't sign on to the use of electronic devices to stay up to the second (or date) on the most recent announcements taking place in the world, i am not sure i'd blow off this tweet, lol.. an announcement is an announcement if you are going to use communist china as a comparison.

i happened to watch the first caliphate speech in arabic, as i was curious to see it.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itu6NhED9Yk

turns out their is a clock just down from where he gives the speech that reads about 12:22pm mosul time ( these guys sleep in!) - which is where the speech was given - yesterday.. is mosul on dst too, or do i need just bat? with bat i get moon on the ascendant at 12 libra 01, with ascendant at 13 libra 58.. of course this highlights the opposition of sun and pluto too. i can post a chart if you'd like..
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

I would like to see that chart. As I would have some observations on it myself.

Michael
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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