There are plenty of texts which explain how to set up a chart for a favourable time to start a business, but when does a business or company actually start? The texts are usually silent on that crucial matter.

For 'Limited' or incorporated companies, the moment is usually noon on the date of the certificate of incorporation. But this is unsatisfactory for a number of reasons. Firstly, noon will put the sun at the MC and so usually in the 10th house, which is good - but that will be the case for all incorporated companies, which rather dilutes the effect as not all companies are going to be sun-in-the-tenth type companies either in future performance or in character.

Secondly, it is difficult to elect the date at which Companies House will issue the certificate for your company when you register it, so electing a time to set up a limited company has its problems.

Thirdly, a way around this is to buy an off-the-shelf company which has the right date and then change the name and the memorandums & articles to reflect the sort of company you want. But this is akin to taking a new-born child and deciding you do not like the colour of its eyes, or its hair, or its sex, or the colour of its skin, and changing all those to suit your liking by changing the genes. Is it the same child? Is the original birth chart still valid? I would say no.

For ordinary companies, like a new restaurant say, the time at which the door is opened to the public is often marked as the start of the business. But suppose nobody walks in through the door...? Using the analogy of a new-born child again, being born is one thing, but the first breath is usually marked as the moment the child assumes an independent life of its own. You don't really have a restaurant business until someone walks in and actually eats and pays for a meal. But, once again, it is difficult to elect a time when somebody is actually going to come and breath life into a company by doing business with it.

So, I would like to know if anybody has experience in electing a start-of-business, how the moment was chosen and how successful it was, or any ideas on how one can decide when a business will actually 'start'.

Geoffrey,

I am not sure if my post would help you. The system of astrology I use does not recognize 'MC' or Asc, however, my experience of electing goes back to 1991. The system I use is 'Astrology', Hand Prints of Promoters, Symbols and Alphabets (not numerology).

From the legal point of view and speaking from the context of my country.

1. A company is an 'Artificial Judicial Person'
2. Nobody can own or buy a company
3. Company issues shares which entitles members to percentage in 'Net Profits' to the extent of 'Dividends' declared by the Directors (I would explain this point in detail).
4. There are two types of companies. Private limited and Public Limited.
5. A Private company comes into existence when 'Registrar of Companies' issues 'Certificate of Incorporation'
6. A Public Company comes into existence when 'Registrar of Companies' issues 'Certificate of Incorporation', however, it can not commence business or exercise its borrowing powers unless 'Registrar issues a further 'Certificate of Commencement of Business'

The reason for my explanation of the above is that the law relating to incorporation, management & administration of companies in my country borrows heavily from British Law (Great Britain). It might be relevant in your case.

I have yet to find a skeptic in real life. The Registrar of Companies that I knew were quite interested and sympathetic to my interest in astrology and insistence on issuance of certificate at a certain time and date (if all the documents submitted were in order).

The registration of companies in which I was involved are doing absolutely fine, however, it was small part of what I have been doing. Large portion of my 'Electing experience relates to starting of small businesses, name of businesses and babies, selection of appropriate 'Company seal' etc etc.

Now we come to small businesses, restaurants and shops. You are right that the time of first financial transaction is the 'Birth of Business', however, you need not to wait for an actual customer. There is a term in our language called 'Bohni'. In this system the first customer is pre-selected and is required to appear at the appointed time. That customer buys/takes a bite/ and pays at the same time. There are further ways to increase the power of electing.

I have seen that if first customer happens to be teacher of the owner, it always benefits the business (if the mercury in natal chart of the owner is not weak or negative or both). If one can not find the teacher, mother or eldest sister are always beneficial (if the moon in the natal chart of the owner is not weak or negative or both). There is one exception. If the Natal Mars in the chart of the owner of the business is powerful or dignified, he should always pre-select a customer who happens to be a senior in that sort of business.

I hope it helps.


Explanation of Point number 3

I want to dispel the notion and myth of 'Shareholders Value' and their so called ownership in a company. Lets say I am a company and my name is Horatio. I being an Artificial Judicial Person start a business, however, I see that law encourages me to seek investment in my business by offering shares. These shares would entitle the members in a following way...

Horatio, would first of all pay all expenses relating to business, salaries, purchase of material, taxes, duties, office maintenance. Then at the year end Horatio would sit with his associates called 'Directors' and decide that how much left over portion of earnings has to be set aside for future contingencies, commitments, buying of further equipment. The residue might be be offered as dividends (profit) to members in proportion of their percentage in claim to dividends. So, you see that share holders are only entitled to their share in dividends and they dont own 'Horatio'. [/u]

As usual, thankyou Morpheus for your detailed and wise reply. Your understanding of limited companies is indeed in accord with UK law. If I may summarise your points, the practicalities of 'starting' a business at the elected time are:

1) For limited companies, go down to Companies House (in the UK) and ask the Register of Companies to issue the Certificate of Registration as the elected time. The place where the company is born, though, should be the registered address for the company, which may well (often is) the offices of a lawyer or accountant who acts for the company.

2) For an ordinary business, have someone - the worthier the better - come and "breath life" into the company by 'doing business' with the company at the appointed time. 'Doing business' here are those functions that we recognise as essential to the survival of any business, that is buying/partaking/paying-for the services/products of the business, just as for a human taking that first breath is essential for its survival.

I suspect very few business owners/directors (or astrologers) in the UK go to the efforts outlined above - unless they come from Pakistan or India.

I would be interested in hearing from other astrologers on how they define the actual 'start' of a business and how they go about the practicalities of ensuring the business does indeed 'start' at the elected moment.

For ordinary companies, like a new restaurant say, the time at which the door is opened to the public is often marked as the start of the business. But suppose nobody walks in through the door...?

Geoffrey, hi.
I'd like to share some thoughts on this issue, although I am not an astrologer.

I am thinking that electing an opening moment for a retail store should be similar to electing a wedding moment. You may have announced your guests that you get married at 16.45am Somewhere, but that doesn't mean they are coming. However you are getting married that time, even if there is none to witness it. I think this is similar to opening of a restaurant. You are open when you are open, not until someone witnesses it.

As far as the other type of companies, which are not directly connected to the public, I would make this distinction: a) for self-run companies, I 'd take the moment the Certificate of Registration is issued, which I imagine that unfortunately you can't really elect, and b) for a cooperation company, when two or more people decide to get to business together, I would mark their signing contract in front of lawyer as their start-up moment.

Georgia

Geoffrey, hi.
I'd like to share some thoughts on this issue, although I am not an astrologer.

If you are passionate about astrology, you are an astrologer!

I am thinking that electing an opening moment for a retail store should be similar to electing a wedding moment. You may have announced your guests that you get married at 16.45am Somewhere, but that doesn't mean they are coming. However you are getting married that time, even if there is none to witness it. I think this is similar to opening of a restaurant. You are open when you are open, not until someone witnesses it.

Hmm. On the one hand, there has to be a symbolic moment when the wedding happened. You put the case that the moment for the wedding is the time printed on the wedding invitation card - whether anybody was there to witness it or not. The logical extension of this is that you could elect a time for the wedding, which is put on the invitation cards, but hold the actual wedding at some other time and just have a reception at the advertised time, which happens to be logistically convenient. Would that be OK? I don't think so.

It could be argued that symbolic moment for the birth of a child is the time put on the birth certificate. But that does not stop astrologers mistrusting that time and rectifying it to get a more accurate 'actual' time.

At the end of the day, the symbolic moment has to bare a strong relation to the practical moment when we can say, for example, a child takes its first breath and attains independent life, or a launched ship actually takes to the water - floating in its natural element - and becomes a ship.

For a business, I would maintain that the 'symbolic moment' has to bare a strong relationship to when the business starts functioning as a real business rather than being 'still-born' with all the attributes and appendages of a business, but never actually functioning as a business.

Does opening the doors briefly at two o'clock in the morning, when the streets are deserted and there is nobody to come in to get a meal mean a restaurant was 'born' at that moment? No, I would say not. But if the moment had been well advertised and in consequence, there was a crowd of people busting to get in at two o'clock in the morning, that is a different story! Even then, as Morpheus intimated, it is not enough that there are people there ready to buy and eat food - there actually has to be food for sale and somebody has to actually eat and pay for a meal before you can say that the new restaurant has, unarguably and without question, become a restaurant business.

As far as the other type of companies, which are not directly connected to the public, I would make this distinction: a) for self-run companies, I 'd take the moment the Certificate of Registration is issued, which I imagine that unfortunately you can't really elect,

Well, Morpheus argued that if you actually went to the registrar of companies and asked that the certificate of registration be issued at a particular time, they would probably be sympathetic to that request. Why not? It is no skin off their nose what time they 'sign' the certificate.

and b) for a cooperation company, when two or more people decide to get to business together, I would mark their signing contract in front of lawyer as their start-up moment.

Is agreeing to start a business the same as a business starting? I think the two events are quite separate and distinct. It is like saying that a child is born at the moment of conception, when the parents 'agree' to have a child, rather than the (usually accepted) moment when the child actually attains independent life.

Geoffrey wrote:
Does opening the doors briefly at two o'clock in the morning, when the streets are deserted and there is nobody to come in to get a meal mean a restaurant was 'born' at that moment? .

geoffrey, i empathize with your desire to find the correct birth moment for a business. one could argue that 'opening' the doors is the birth moment, even if no one shows up for a period of time.. from reading your thread since you introduced it, it seems you want to make the moment hinge on the first customer, as opposed to the moment it became a functioning business which i would define as the opening of the doors..

let me give you another example that i know has been used extensively regarding corporations that get listed on the nyse or any other stock market exchange. the time used for trading on the nyse is 930am the last time i looked into this... the stock might not actually trade right at 930am, but it is listed to trade at this moment of time and technically a valid time to use as i previously understood it!

now that i have said that, perhaps someone will come along to correct me on all of this! i continue to be interested in others thoughts on this process too..

If you are passionate about astrology, you are an astrologer!

first of all, Geoffrey, thanx for the copliment!
although I 'm afraid this is judged by the outcome..

What I meant using the wedding example, is that in my opinion, the event takes place even when there is none to witness it.
I think your argument that in the restaurant example business starts on the first entering customer, is in fact in contrast to your approach in the case of business started at the registration time. According to your first logical argument, business to the second case should also be considered to start at your first customer/ deal/ project etc. So, if you are let's say a therapist, is your business born at the registry or at the moment your first client rings your bell?

The way I see it, it is neither the registry nor the client, but rather the time you are officially open.

Georgia

james_m wrote: one could argue that 'opening' the doors is the birth moment, even if no one shows up for a period of time.. from reading your thread since you introduced it, it seems you want to make the moment hinge on the first customer, as opposed to the moment it became a functioning business which i would define as the opening of the doors..

OK James, many astrologers also take this as the symbolic moment when a business starts. But taking our restaurant as an example, is it sufficient that the doors are opened to admit the public? Would you say that if 2:35am is deemed to be a propitious moment in an election chart, it is sufficient just to drive to the restaurant early in the morning and unlock the doors for a few minutes at 2:35am on a dark and cold dining room and so declare that the business is now started.....?

Should there not also be food on offer? Food that is ready to eat or, at least, ready to be cooked and eaten? Otherwise, what is the point of just opening the doors? And to continue, should there not also be someone there - or the means - to accept payment for the meal? Otherwise, what is the point of giving food away? And shouldn't this moment of opening the doors be widely publicised, so that everybody knows the restaurant will be open for business at this moment.

"Opening the doors" is really a synonym for "Open for business". Would you not agree?

I hope you see my point James. "Opening the doors" is a symbolic statement, rather reminiscent of the "stretching the chord" ceremony in Ancient Egypt, which was the symbolic time when the pyramid was started. But I would put the point that in a wider meaning, a lot of groundwork needs to have been done before "Opening the doors" attains any significance.

Personally, I would go further than that. Taking the natal scenario as a comparison, being "open for business" is rather like a child being born. The baby exits the womb and is ready to exist as an independent entity. It is "open for business". But this moment, when the baby exits the womb and enters big wide world is not regarded as the moment of "birth". The symbolic moment when the child is considered "born" is when it takes its first breath and becomes a living entity in its own right. That is when it starts to function as a "living business".

So, in the same way, having the doors open, the cookers on, staff at the ready is - I would argue - not sufficient to say that a restaurant has now started business. It is "open for business", yes, but until that first customer comes in and breaths life into the business by buying and paying for a meal, it is not "born" as a business.

For this reason, I am also unhappy about using the date and time of the Certificate of Registration as the moment of birth for incorporated or limited companies - even though it is common practise to do so. I would like to see some further justification on why this should be the moment that such a company is considered "born".

Can anybody say when it became accepted practice to use the noon chart for the date of the Certificate of Incorporation or Registration as the chart for an incorporated/limited company? What success have people had in predicting the future of companies using such charts? With natal charts, the first thing any astrologer would want to do is rectify a noon chart - does anybody do that for business noon charts?

Geoffrey wrote: "Opening the doors" is really a synonym for "Open for business". Would you not agree?

yes, i would agree with this. anyone who opens the doors technically needs to be ready to sell what it is doing.. so the preparation would be there for this moment. if you want to play with analogies - it isn't the first breathe until the first customer buys something - i don't see it that way myself, but i see your point. i think you are getting hung up on it. i don't have an answer for the other part of your post.

james_m wrote:. i think you are getting hung up on it.

Well, I am trying to be consistent. If our approach to astrology is not consistent, we will quickly be led astray.

Elective astrology is arguably the oldest and the purest form of astrology. In fact, in his book Astrologia Restaurata (Astrology Restored) (1653) Ramesey argues that not only horary astrology is debased, (which many astrologers would have agreed with then, as now) but also natal astrology - which many astrologers today see as the bedrock of astrology - and so he does not write about them in his book. And yet - here in the West anyway - elective astrology seems to be practised by very few astrologers in any serious way. Which is a pity, as what better way to harness the power of astrology than to elect those key moments in our lives?

With regard to starting a business, Ramesey has a lot to say about the best moment to start a business, but nothing whatever to say about the moment when a business starts! Too, the concept of a "business" was not the same a third of a millennia ago as it is today, so what might have been taken for granted as the cultural context when the book was written is missing today.

I am seeking here to try and fill that gap and pin down just how a business ought to 'start' once we elect a time and date to start it.

Geoffrey wrote: Well, I am trying to be consistent. If our approach to astrology is not consistent, we will quickly be led astray.

well i appreciate that about you too! i think we all are doing this in our own way, but perhaps some of us are more easily led astray!

that is interesting what you say about ramasey and his book on electional astrology. i haven't read it.

i know in the dykes book "choices and inceptions" which is a book focused on this topic that the ideas are laid out fairly straight forwardly but the application is different, depending on what it is being applied to.. in the case of picking a time to go on a journey we might seem to have more direct control on it to a point. the time we leave the house is what i would consider the time of the start of the journey.. some might say, no it is when the plane leaves.. as for opening a restaurant - which i think you used in an earlier comment - i think the time of the opening, not the time of the first customer ordering food - is the time i would use. otherwise you can't elect the time! either you are into electing a time and believe in the usefulness of the time, or you are at the mercy of when your first customer arrives! what is the use of election astrology in this case?

there is an interview that chris brennan does with an astrologer - let me see if i can find it - http://theastrologypodcast.com/2014/02/ ... ime-birth/

where the astrologer is trying to use electional astrology to time the arrival of his child's birth.. to me - this is a mis-use of the astrology. others may disgree with my viewpoint on this.

as for the start of a business, i don't see anything inconsistent with using the time of the opening as opposed to the time of the first customer which is how i boil this down.. using the timing of the first customer or transaction means you are no longer using electional astrology as i see it and leaving it all up to chance! tell me how you rationalize it differently.

james_m wrote:
there is an interview that chris brennan does with an astrologer - let me see if i can find it - http://theastrologypodcast.com/2014/02/ ... ime-birth/

Ah, what a wonder you are James, you keep leading me to these interesting references!

where the astrologer is trying to use electional astrology to time the arrival of his child's birth.. to me - this is a mis-use of the astrology. others may disagree with my viewpoint on this.

Well, it has been possible for over 2000 years since Julius Caesar was born using the first (known) use of the procedure now known as a Caesarian Section. I suspect, though, that a child is always born when it should be born - even if part of the process in which that birth time is arrived at is through an astrologer's election chart.

One could argue that election astrology as a concept is a misuse of astrology - events happen in our lives according a cosmic pattern and we should not try to interfere with it. But actually, election astrology has never had a bad press throughout history, even when other forms of astrology were derided or even dangerous to practice.

as for the start of a business, i don't see anything inconsistent with using the time of the opening as opposed to the time of the first customer which is how i boil this down.. using the timing of the first customer or transaction means you are no longer using electional astrology as i see it and leaving it all up to chance! tell me how you rationalize it differently.

Well, Morpheus in his posting above solves that problem by having someone come in at the appropriate time to be the customer that brings the business to life. Of course, that customer should not be just anybody, it should be somebody worthy, preferably a 10th house sort of person so that it is an event of note. Morpheus mentioned that the teacher of the person opening the business - the person who taught the business owner his trade - is a good choice too. The event is contrived, yes, but that is true for election astrology as a whole and is a nice symbolic/ceremonial moment to 'start' the business