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Galactic Centre
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RodJM



Joined: 02 Feb 2014
Posts: 82
Location: Tasmania!

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:17 am    Post subject: Galactic Centre Reply with quote

Hi, first post on these forums. Very Happy

It would be enlightening to hear from other members, any thoughts, opinions or experiences with this major concentrated cluster of stars that is the rotational centre of our milky way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Centre

How would this impact or influence an individuals natal chart? If it does, how much of an orb should be allowed?
As far as I know, it is about 26 - 27 degrees Sagittarius (tropical)

All I could find via a quick net search is this article:

http://www.horary.com/hhcrl/galact.html

The first paragraph;

Quote:
"The Center of our Milky Way Galaxy is proving to be a fascinating and practical addition to my clients' charts. Having studied it for 12 years now, my observations would indicate that it is probably the second strongest spot in any astrology chart, following the Sun. It is a stunning source of energy, motivation, and aspiration. The Galactic Center is the Sun of our Sun. It is the source of most of the gravitational energy present in our galaxy, and probably the source of most of the energy in any chart, transformed through our own Sun."


I found this absolutely fascinating and mind blowing to say the least! It explains in large part some of the behavior in my own natal chart... Shocked

Thanks in advance
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 294
Location: Portugal

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Galactic Centre Reply with quote

RodJM wrote:
I found this absolutely fascinating and mind blowing to say the least! It explains in large part some of the behavior in my own natal chart... Shocked


I would say that the more things you add to a natal chart, more things you can "explain"..
Confused
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RodJM



Joined: 02 Feb 2014
Posts: 82
Location: Tasmania!

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Galactic Centre Reply with quote

jventura wrote:
RodJM wrote:
I found this absolutely fascinating and mind blowing to say the least! It explains in large part some of the behavior in my own natal chart... Shocked


I would say that the more things you add to a natal chart, more things you can "explain"..
Confused


Well, thats the thing with astrology is'nt it? when you consider all 360 degrees of a chart, any point can be interpreted with symbolism that we can literally "cherry pick" to explain or rationalize in our interpretations.

This is one of the reasons why I have not bothered to learn everything you could possibly learn about astrology, because there are too many different systems (both eastern and western) which diverge into lengthy hierarchies like a computer storage system. Yet, all schools of thought observe the same sky... rule of thumb I use, if you can't observe it happening in day to day reality then its just myth.
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Galactic Centre Reply with quote

RodJM wrote:
Well, thats the thing with astrology is'nt it? when you consider all 360 degrees of a chart, any point can be interpreted with symbolism that we can literally "cherry pick" to explain or rationalize in our interpretations.


Hi Rod,

spot on!
The current research trend on astrology is to know a "result" previously and try to find the reasons on a chart. Some of the times you do indeed find a reason. However, when that reason is not so obvious, one tends to delve into more "obscure" techniques until he finds that reason.

Personally, with an academic background in science, I do admit that this approach does not benefit the increase of "correct" knowledge in astrology. However, we don't have currently another consistent methodology to do research in astrology, at least one that gives us consistently good results..

So, my current point of view (for me) is that a new technique or "suspicion" of technique must be carefully presented and significantly recurrent (as in statistically significant) to be considered valid at all. For the techniques which I learned (I come from a Traditional Astrology course), until proven wrong or not significant, I will continue to use them, the reason being that they may have stood the test of time.

However, even some Traditional methods I have already discarded. For instance, for the Animodar, a traditional technique for rectification of birth time described in Ptolomy and William Lilly's Christian Astrology, I made part of a group which made a statistical study with a dataset of 100+ correct birth times taken by a nurse on a Maternity Hospital. We did find that the "correct" births did indeed have a pattern, however, the same pattern could be observed from random birth times. So, our conclusion was that although there was a pattern that the older astrologers did detect, that pattern is not usable.

(The article was published at the traditional journal (#3), but I requested permission to the editors and it is available at www.skyplux.com/init/static/animodar_effect.pdf if it appeals you.)

So, my personal opinion it that maybe the Galactic Centre "works", maybe it doesn't, but until further testing is carefully made, I personally will not consider it as valid.


Regards,
João Ventura
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RodJM



Joined: 02 Feb 2014
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Location: Tasmania!

Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your response jventura,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say! Smile
However, another thing we have to consider is the political, historical and socio-economic context in which any given individual or event is manifesting, irrespective of any potentiality expressed in an astrological chart. Can someone who is born into a repressive country that limits personal freedoms like as in today's North Korea for example, be able to express natal astrological energies relatively unhindered as opposed to someone born in the US or the UK or any other liberal democratic society?

What about those who are born in the southern hemisphere of our planet? how does the sun sign manifest itself if we take for example the reversal of the seasons as hapens in the real world of the southern hemisphere. For example, the sun entering Libra is suppose to be in its "fall" in the northern hemisphere, yet down in the south its on the rise and gaining power. Is this outcome demonstrated in Librans who are born in southern hemisphere countries and does this mean that Aquarians have the Sun in maximum power as opposed to Leo having this traditional focus of ego expression?
Seems to me, a lot more credible research has to be done on this.

I'm raising this point, because all traditional astrology is based on observations of the sky in the northern hemisphere as I'm sure you know.

I came across this very interesting concept from the website of http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-and-southern-hemisphere-astrology/

Alice Portman raises an issue that still hasn't been satisfactorily answered or debated enough in recent times throughout the astrological community, at least not on the internet as far as I know.

All the best,
Rodney

Very Happy
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, to both of you!

I have to say that i generally agree with jventura. Over the past decade (thanks to the internet mostly) I have come across just about too many "revolutionary" ideas not to be skeptical when a new one comes around. Tossing away the planets and replacing them by the fixed stars, Juno as the ultimate representative of the person's destiny, Chiron as the most important "planet" in a horoscope of an individual...you name it.
Whilst I don't generally dismiss the influence even of the tiniest celestial bodies, I still tend to stick with the commonly accepted hierarchy. That, after all, is something that even the astrologers who's principles differ to a certain extend, still obey to- I might be reluctant when it comes to assigning the modern planets as rulers unlike a modern astrologer however, no serious astrologer would entirely toss away a point in a chart that has been considered important for ages over a tiny, almost completely unknown and recently discovered body.
My reasons go along with what has already been mentioned by jventura- a huge lack of strong evidences and "pocket edition" of testimonies. Call me conservative but, sticking with the descriptions written by hundreds of astrologers throughout a few millenniums, just sounds like the safest way for me. Very Happy In addition, and again, as jventura already mentioned, even the traditional sources offer different perspectives which leaves us in a need to untangle the most accepted value and meaning of certain influences.

Now, whilst I generally and theoretically agree with you when you say that (more or less) even the Sun has its father which, basically, means that the Galactic centre is the dispositor or ruler of the Sun hence the father of the life-giving planet, we have to keep in mind that that very sun is affecting us, here on the Earth, which is why, to me at least, shifting the focus back to where we are is of the utter importance. For this reason, I have to stick with the traditional perspective that stresses the importance of ecliptical geocentric longitude (the degree ascending at the time when we are born on this planet ie Ascendant) and gives it the precedence over other the other important points.

Is the Galactic centre capable of delivering some important elements in a chart delineation? I am sure that it actually can however, with time, we learn not only to respect the astrological symbolism but also the time we have to delineate charts and that time often doesn't allow us to spend weeks working on a single chart. Eventually, we toss some elements away - some astrologers don't even examine Vertex whilst consider a chart unfinished until Vertex is examined. The same applies to the Arabic parts, sects, long/short ascension etc.

Having said all this, I think I should also stress that, regardless of the fact that i have shared my opinion, I have a strong appreciation for your work (12 years isn't a little)- I would be very interested to read more about your impressions so, if and when you have time, please do post a bit more about it.

Quote:
What about those who are born in the southern hemisphere of our planet?


It is high time for you to invent your own virtue, don't you think? You don't have to copy everything from us. Lala Happy

Obviously, astrology was born around the Mediterranean area and many traditional sources come from Europe but, hey, what can you expect- back when some of those strictures were written, no one even knew you existed down there. Smile I don't really find it surprising that European and north American astrologers aren't very interested in giving this matter a better examination but, even from the theoretical point of view, it is a very "appealing" task. However, over here, we simply lack enough evidences.

Quote:
Can someone who is born into a repressive country that limits personal freedoms like as in today's North Korea for example, be able to express natal astrological energies relatively unhindered as opposed to someone born in the US or the UK or any other liberal democratic society?


Astrology aside, I have to say that I'm not easily convinced that all the societies that are nowadays labeled democratic are indeed as liberal and free as the adds say. Smile

But, from the astrological perspective- we have to keep in mind that the we are given a very small number of astrological elements to work with and that the astrological symbolism can go in many direction. I know a woman who was born into a lovely family, in a peaceful and prosperous country however, when she was 17, the country entered into a war and she and her family witnessed the biggest misery one can imagine. 10 years later, she make a new home in a country on the other side of the ocean and met a woman, her neighbor, who had never left her home town and had led a "normal life". Soon, they realised that their charts were almost identical.
North and South Korea are not far from each other and we can always expect that at least two persons, born close to the country border, were born at the same time and that, despite the similarities in their natal charts, their lives have been significantly different. But, in order to to prove that assumption, we can always use charts of twin brothers born just about anywhere in the World.

Cheers,

aglaya
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RodJM wrote:
Quote:
What about those who are born in the southern hemisphere of our planet?


I have opened a couple of threads on this issue in the past. This one had the most participation. It was in the Philosophy forum:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5135

Funnily, enough I chose to raise a question on this exact topic in my very first thread on Skyscipt almost 10 years ago:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1172

Mark
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it isn't so obvious that astrology was 'born' in the Meditteranean area. Not so, born in the Fertile Crescent circa 1850 bc in Hamurabi's Babylon. Documented in the fifth Book of Creation where the essential syllogism of our art or craft was set the as above, so below, magician in the tarot deck, was crafted when the syllogism ... Marduk the God had his heavenly agent (Negal, the planet Jupiter) and earthly agent Priest/King Hamurabi ... it was during the Babylonian Capitivity of the Jews ... remember Daniel and Ezekiel? the 70 weeks of Astrology in the Daniel? by which the locus of the art was transmitted from Babylon to Persepolis with the Persian/Iranian/Aryan conquest and hegemony. Incidentally, I believe Daniel to have been Zoroaster ... which means Star Gazer in Greek, and is NOT, I repeat NOT the way the Greeks said Zarathustra who took his name from his family's profession, Camel Driver, something of an ancient cowboy. As a monotheist, preceded Abraham by a couple/few centuries (Abraham circa 2200 bc). There are contemporary Greek reports that say that Zoroaster was a Chaldean (a semite, like the Babylonians and Jews) meaning a Babylonian priest, and who was the chief of the Babylonian StarGazers, advising the King regarding the meaning of the Writing on the Wall?

The great Vaharamihira claimed lineage of those astrologer/astronomer Brahmins who were descended from the Magi taught by Zoroaster, as were the Sassassanian kings and the Magi in Bethelem who were there because Daniel/Zoroaster had PREDICTED Christ, as evidenced by the 70 weeks of Astrology in the Bible, and parsed out beautifully by some fundamental Baptist organization. 70 weeks = 490 days -- secondary progressions get you 490 years -- the Baptists parse out those 490 years between Daniel's prediction and the Crucifixion. Daniel was so cool.

The Persians learned their astrology from Zoroaster ... when Alexander marched victorious through Persepolis at the Pluto Neptune opposition ... Daniel/Cyrus concurrent with the Pluto Neptune conjunction ... that's when the locus changed to the Meditteranean.

The next Neptune/Pluto conjunction, consider young Caesar's Rome of 84 BC when he first stuck out his political chin and got in the face of the Dictator Sulla, as marrying the daughter of a 'politically incorrect' politician rather than a low profile rich girl.

I majored in anthropology many moons ago at the University of Chicago and made it a major goal in life to be in Guatemala for the 13 Baktun, since the chthonically American Mayans represent the epitome of the academic passions (actually U of C is more of a lyceum than an Academy, being Aristotlean, not Platonic, in temperament) ... anthropology and astrology.

The thrust of Mayan astrology is their understanding and focus on the Galactic Disk and it's dynamic intersection with the ecliptic and the Galactic Center nearby and the (precessing) angle between the earth's axis and that intersection which is evidence in the remains of pre-Columbian villages that were not oriented on a N/S grid but somewhat off this which has changed thru time, the villages can be dated by the angle ... and that of the galactic disc with respect to the earth's axis ... their Chief (Bird) Deity -- the CBD of the glyphs ... Itznama ... the Galactic Center at 27 Sag ... symbolized by the Ceiba tree with the Quetzel (national bird) on it on their flag, the quetzale (feather) is the name of their currency. The cocao bean was used for market money among the ancient mayan, and their god of commerce, Ah Chua, sounds like a sneeze.

Here's the perfect time for a If the Phoo Shits joke

December 1999 marks the astronomical epoch 2000.0 when the solstice point precessed exactly to the Galactic Disc. I like to think of the exact date being September 9, 1999 ... turn all those 9's upside down and all hell breaks loose.

The solstice point will not precess to the Galactic Center at 27 Sagittarius tropical (6 Sidereal Sag) until about another pluto revolution -- circa 2227 ad ...

Speaking of All Hell breaking loose or Pandemonium, on of the few actual predictions the Mayans made about the 13th Baktun was that a deity called Bolon Yokte Ku which means 9 footed referring to the 9 levels of the Mayan underword ... eg all hell ... a Deity named Bolon Yokte Kuh would accompany the 13th Bakun.

I think those guys were spot on.


Last edited by SGFoxe on Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to send this thread off track, but will add that I agree with a lot of the points SGFoxe makes here about origins and transmission of early astrology, and the (largely unrecognised) influence of Zoroaster. Transmission of texts from this region to Alexandria, Egypt, is known to have happened when Alexander conquered these lands and stole their texts as spoils of war.
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The galactic center as an astrological concept is not entirely limited to contemporary speculation. While I do not have enough scientific background to enter into the discussion re: tropical vs. sidereal astronomy in late classical or early medieval times, it is worth noting that early Arabic sources mark the exaltation of the South Node at 3 degrees of Sagittarius, very close to the sidereal galactic center.

While the evidence for use of the galactic center in Western astrology is a bit speculative, this point has been used as an astrological factor in India since very early times, as it marks the nakshatra Mula. This region of the sky is ruled by the goddess Niritti ("calamity"), who is commonly believed to be ancestral to the later goddess Kali; the interpretation of the galactic center point in individual horoscopes is modeled upon the mythic attributes of the goddess. Some folk traditions in India assert that the Dark Rift is the birth canal of the goddess.
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SGFoxe



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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an interesting argument among Hindu astrologers about the start of the nakshatra zodiac ... the argument for an Orion beginning in on point, because within that nakshatra the intersection of the galactic disk with the ecliptic ...
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Kenneth Johnson



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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, SGFoxe. Among the nakshatras, Orion is equated with the creator Prajapati (later known as Brahma); hence this intersection of Milky Way and ecliptic may be referred to as a "creation place." The opposite intersection at the galactic center is equated with Niritti (later known as Kali), the goddess of misfortune, hence a "destruction place." Practical horoscopic delineation makes use of these mythic parallels. I have never heard of Orion (Mrigashira) as a beginning point for the nakshatras; however, the adjoining nakshatra, Rohini (Aldebaran), is named as a beginning point in the Mahabharata, and early monumental architecture in the Indus is oriented towards the rising of Aldebaran at the spring equinox c. 3200 BCE.

I am not attempting to argue for any direct historical parallels, but the Classic Maya also recognized Orion as a creation place (see Linda Schele, Maya Cosmos, University of Texas), and during my years in remote Momostenango I found that many traditional Maya could still point to the galactic center as the "road to the Underworld."

In any case, I suspect that a good case can be made for the use of the galactic center as an astrologically significant point in many pre-modern cultures, though I admit the evidence is a bit thin in the case of Western astrology.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Galactic Centre Reply with quote

Hi Rod and everybody reading this thread,

Esoterically speaking, the Galactic Centre is a nexus where the etheric output of all the stars in the milky way (and their civilizations) is being processed. So if you have the GZ in a prominent position in your natal chart this would indicate, by analogy, a talent for "parallel computing", working with and integrating complex issues and ideas, artistic expression (typically involving multimedia). Further keywords: Complex political, economic and social issues; diplomacy; cross-cultural aspects; knowledge; wisdom.

Information on the GC can be found on:

http://www.philipsedgwick.com/

Hope this helps.

Regards
Michael
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RodJM



Joined: 02 Feb 2014
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Location: Tasmania!

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all your input on this fascinating subject, I haven't forgot about this thread!

Life has just been too busy and crazy lately, but the subject matter is still rumbling around in my subconscious.

I'll blame that transiting Rx Mars passing over some personal planets of mine at the moment..lol.. Smile

I know I raised several issues in my post dated Feb 20, because these are issues that influence the development of modern astrology and its a progressive science/art or whatever or however you want to classify it right?

All these concepts and discoveries are so new, they will have to take as I say "The acid test" of reality testing, and that's "reality" as its perceived on a day to day basis in THIS day and age.
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RodJM



Joined: 02 Feb 2014
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Location: Tasmania!

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My intuition is telling me to pursue sidereal astrology from now on and to put this topic on the back burner for the time being. In my opinion, this is the real physical astrology with direct correlations to astronomy.
It really makes sense.
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