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10th Equal house cusp verses MC
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:13 am    Post subject: 10th Equal house cusp verses MC Reply with quote

Hello fellow astrologers,

This thread spins off my “Equal verses unequal houses” thread, thanks to a suggestion by Mark.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8233

In the course of that discussion, I raised the question: What distinguishes the MC from the Nonagesimal, or the 10th Equal house cusp, in their astrological symbolism?

The Nonagesimal is always 90° away from the ASC (hence its name). It is the highest point of the zodiac at any given time, as opposed to the MC which is the highest position a celestial body will reach relative to the horizon on a particular day.

Their difference in terms of celestial mechanics is something not very easily grasped by many an astrologer, but I think the contributors to aforesaid thread did a nice job all together to make this really clear.

BTW, I consider that thread by no means finished, and I would ask contributors to place posts regarding further theoretical and historical discussion of the topic there.

This new thread is specifically dedicated to thoughts and observations on this subject in regard to practical astrology.

My personal suggestion is that the MC most of all represents an individual's motivation or driving force - which may or may not find expression in their profession as depicted by Equal X.

For illustration, I am presenting the natal chart of Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homoeopathy.



Note that the 10th cusp is in Virgo which is in line with the man being a medical doctor. Only Equal suggests this!

The MC however falls into Libra and the 11th house. There, it stands for Hahnemann's strong motivation to aid humanity by inventing and continuously refining his new method of medicine.

Especially for those of you who consider the houses as analogous to the signs, I would like to add that homoeopathy is considered a Uranian method of medicine due to its seemingly paradoxical and purely energetic approach to healing.

On the “Equal verses unequal house systems” thread, Larxene shared another observation that would seem to support the concept I am proposing:

Larxene wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:11 am
Quote:
The second person I have in mind is Sherloc-- I mean, Arthur Conan Doyle . Using the EH system, he has the MC in the 8th house! Now, presumably we all know he created one of the most popular fictional detectives of all time. When we talk about detectives, we talk about crime, but most importantly, death. He was not originally a writer; his works simply got popular. If the MC was in the 10th, he may have been more prominent as a writer before he started the Holmes series.


Looking forward to hear from you!

Michael

(edited to add link to the previous thread - Paul)
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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Michael,

Just a suggestion....

Judging by a poll I previously did on Skyscript there are very few people that participate here actually using Equal system at present. A lot more seem to be working with Whole Sign houses.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7356

So to encourage wider participation on this thread you would probably be better to change your thread title to Equal/WSH 10th vs MC. Or simply reword this Nonagesimal vs MC?

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Quote:
Note that the 10th cusp is in Virgo which is in line with the man being a medical doctor. Only Equal suggests this!


Not so! The signs and house rulers in Equal + Whole Sign houses are exactly the same. I made that point already in the other thread this discussion has sprung from.

Mark
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Paul
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: 10th Equal house cusp verses MC Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Hello fellow astrologers,

This thread spins off my “Equal verses unequal houses” thread, thanks to a suggestion by Mark.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8233
....
(edited to add link to the previous thread - Paul)


Michael

Thanks for starting this discussion, and thanks to Mark too for suggesting it. I've made a small amend to the opening post and have linked the previous thread for future reference if someone reads back over these threads.

Mark wrote:

Not so! House rulers in Equal + Whole Sign houses are exactly the same. I made that point already in the other thread this discussion has sprung from.


Mark, of course you're right that the ruler of the house will be the same, though I would add that of course when examining a house cusp, we observe more than just the ruler of the sign in which the cusp is found - a planet on the cusp itself is likely to be a powerful placement in describing symbolism relating to that house. So in this sense, although in this example it is true that obviously whole signs have the same sign sign and sign ruler as equal, there may be other cases where we ought to observe the planets which are found on the 10th house cusp, and as only equal measures the nonagesimal with its cusp, whilst we can use whole signs, we should still stick to focusing on the 10th house equal cusp.

Really using the equal house system is incidental to the fact that we're focusing here on the nonagesimal versus the MC, but to remove opacity about the term nonagesimal Michael has put it as 10th Equal house cusp, which is probably just as well.
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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Quote:
Mark, of course you're right that the ruler of the house will be the same, though I would add that of course when examining a house cusp, we observe more than just the ruler of the sign in which the cusp is found - a planet on the cusp itself is likely to be a powerful placement in describing symbolism relating to that house. So in this sense, although in this example it is true that obviously whole signs have the same sign sign and sign ruler as equal, there may be other cases where we ought to observe the planets which are found on the 10th house cusp, and as only equal measures the nonagesimal with its cusp, whilst we can use whole signs, we should still stick to focusing on the 10th house equal cusp.


I dont think 'cusps' mean the beginning of houses. I use the equal 'cusps' as sensitive/powerful points in whole sign houses. The powerful point in a house is often not at its beginning. Indeed, the Indians view planets as relatively weak which fall distant from the house cusp located in the centre of the house. I take this view to planets in WSH houses if they are distant from either the Equal cusps or MC/IC axis. With this approach one can have ones cake and eat it i.e Whole Sign houses, Equal cusps and the use of MC/IC.

I really like a comment Tom made here on the forum a few years ago that perfectly encapsulates this point:

Tom wrote:
Quote:
The word "cusp" comes from a Latin word "cuspis" which is the tip of a sword or the point where the energy is concentrated. The point (no pun intended) is that the word "cusp" does not mean "beginning." The cusp is the most sensitive or important point in the house, just as the the front door is not the most important point in your home, you have to get inside a little bit to get there.


However, I dont want to drag Michael's thread into theoretical discussions. Lets just analyse charts!

Paul wrote:
Quote:
Really using the equal house system is incidental to the fact that we're focusing here on the nonagesimal versus the MC, but to remove opacity about the term nonagesimal Michael has put it as 10th Equal house cusp, which is probably just as well.


With only 3% of people stating they use Equal on our poll I have my doubts. I would have preferred a more inclusive thread title that incorporated the much more popular WSH option.

Still I know you, James and Michael use them and I will participate so thats not a bad start.

Mark
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Paul
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

I dont think 'cusps' mean the beginning of houses. I use the equal 'cusps' as sensitive/powerful points in whole sign houses. The powerful point in a house is often not at its beginning.


Oh okay, fair enough, I always assumed cusp was the beginning of the house, from which the 'sensitive point' was defined, either by being at that degree, five degrees before it, or 15 degrees following it.

Quote:
With only 3% of people stating they use Equal on our poll I have my doubts. I would have preferred a more inclusive thread title that incorporated the much more popular WSH option.


Personally I don't mind whether someone uses placidus, whole, equal or anything else they like, provided the focus remains on the comparing and contrasting the point 90º from the ascendant against the MC.

I'm not sure how much I can participate with looking at charts, as I've got some post-graduate exams over the course of the next month to six weeks, but I'll post whatever I can.
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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Quote:
Personally I don't mind whether someone uses placidus, whole, equal or anything else they like, provided the focus remains on the comparing and contrasting the point 90º from the ascendant against the MC.


Agreed. I just think this is usually more of a practical issue for those using Equal or Whole Sign houses. Anyway, I do find this a very intriguing topic from a practical astrological perspective. When I have some more time I will participate here. A bit busy until next week now.

Paul wrote:
Quote:
Oh okay, fair enough, I always assumed cusp was the beginning of the house, from which the 'sensitive point' was defined, either by being at that degree, five degrees before it, or 15 degrees following it.


I think to get into this any further would require a thread on its own. I dont want to deflect Michael's thread any further so I will leave it at my comments here for now.

Mark
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am wondering if the distinction between occupation and vocation might help us sort out the difference between Nonagesimal and MC? While an occupation is a job, a vocation is a calling. I am recycling some comments from another thread here:

The word “vocation,” comes from the Latin vocare, means “calling.” When we take our skills, abilities and values into consideration, a vocation is that thing we find ourselves naturally drawn towards, that thing that we do because we love it, because it matters deeply to us, and that we would do if money weren’t an issue. Vocation allows you to 'Follow your bliss'' as Joseph Campbell said.

Though our vocation may be tied to a job or career choice, it’s not necessarily the same thing. Its therefore a very fortunate person that manages to combine vocation and occupation together.

A good example is St Paul. He apparently made his living as a Tent Maker. However the world remembers him from his vocation as a Christian evangelist.

Might we get some mileage out of this distinction in delineating differences between the MC and Nonagesimal?

Perhaps the MC is reflecting our highest potential as a vocation while the Nonasegimal is more about the occupation we earn our living with?

Mark
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The chart for the former world chess champion Bobby Fischer is interesting.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer

He an an exalted Moon in Taurus on the nonagesimal square Pluto. The Moon is Lord 12.

In contrast his MC is in the 9th house. His Nonagesimal ruler (Venus) is conjunct his MC. His MC ruler (Mars) is conjunct the DESC.

Fischer was a child chess prodigy who was the first Western player to break the post war Soviet domination of chess. He beat the Soviet player Boris Spassky to become world champion in the celebrated 'match of the century' in Reykjavik, Iceland in 1972. The match was noted for Fischer's antics. In constant arguments with officials he boycotted the opening matches. Apparently, Henry Kissinger personally convinced him to reconvene the match! This was the era of cold war and even chess was taken up in this heightened emotional atmosphere.

However, Fischer refused to play again for nearly 20 years and became a reclusive wanderer. He lost his title in 1975 after refusing to defend his title on the terms set out by the world chess Organization (FIDE).

Fischer joined a fundamentalist Christian group known as the Worldwide Church of God in the mid-1960s. The church prescribed Saturday Sabbath, and forbade work (and competitive chess) on Sabbath. Fischer eventually left the church in 1977, "accusing it of being 'satanic,' and vigorously attacking its methods and leadership. The Church had been racked by sex scandals involving its leader and his prophetic predictions had also failed to materialize.

Fischer emerged after twenty years of isolation to play Spassky in a "Revenge Match of the 20th century" in 1992. This match took place in Sveti Stefan and Belgrade, Yugoslavia, in spite of a United Nations embargo that included sanctions on commercial activities.

The U.S. Department of the Treasury warned Fischer before the start of the match that his participation was illegal, that it would violate the President's Executive Order imposing United Nations Security Council Resolution sanctions against engaging in economic activities in Yugoslavia.

In response, during a press conference , in front of the international press, Fischer spat on the U.S. order, saying "this is my reply". His violation of the order led U.S. Federal officials to initiate a warrant for his arrest upon completion of the match.

Fischer spent the rest of his life an emigre. He was held in custody in Japan during 2004-5 and was facing deportation back to the US. However, he was freed after the Icelandic government offered him citizenship in recogntion of his historic match there. Fischer lived in Iceland for the remaining 3 years of his life.

Fischer was absolutely brilliant as a chess player and influenced a generation of players. But he was also pugnacious, argumentative, anti-social and had an essentially paranoid outlook on the world around him. He ended up attacking his country of birth and expressing delight after the 9/11 attacks. He was also anti-semitic. This was particularly bizarre as Fischer's Mother was Jewish.

Yes take another look at that Moon in his chart! Talk about Mother issues. His Mother was actually, highly gifted herself and spoke numerous languages. He clearly, had either a personality disorder or other undiagnosed mental health issues.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Thu May 01, 2014 9:19 pm; edited 7 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michael - thanks for starting this thread.

as i think mark and paul have pointed out lightly - the coincidence of the position of jupiter and it being the ruler of the ascendant adds important information here that might not be replicated in another chart example.

i recall an astrology teacher i had back in the early 80's - i did the natal charts for him in exchange for him giving me some insights on how he would interpret them - he pointed out how he thought the ascendant had great bearing on one's occupation/vocation. of course this would dovetail directly with this example here. i look at the chart and see pluto on the ascendant, with both ascendant and pluto ruled by the jupiter in virgo. homeotherapy makes sense. i wouldn't pick that up off the libra midheaven. i might think surgery with pluto on the ascendant, or some type of healing activity having the libra midheaven ruled by venus in pisces - but that goes back to jupiter too which is in virgo, a sign connected to health generally as i understand all this. the opposition with venus and jupiter would bring us back to this area of the chart as well.

it is tempting to offer up my own chart as an example here on this topic. i will if michael wants another example. michael can send me a private message.

Mark wrote:


I dont think 'cusps' mean the beginning of houses. I use the equal 'cusps' as sensitive/powerful points in whole sign houses. The powerful point in a house is often not at its beginning. Indeed, the Indians view planets as relatively weak which fall distant from the house cusp located in the centre of the house. I take this view to planets in WSH houses if they are distant from either the Equal cusps or MC/IC axis. With this approach one can have ones cake and eat it i.e Whole Sign houses, Equal cusps and the use of MC/IC.
Mark


fwiw - i agree with this viewpoint that mark has made. on the survey that was done here before on what house systems people use i do recall choosing equal houses, but commented on how the way i use them is very similar to whole sign houses, although without the insight that mark has expressed clearly up above, it would be confusing for others to appreciate.

and finally - thanks paul for sharing a pic of you! it is tempting for me to do the same!
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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG James. That pic! What a sexy beast you are!

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark - i see a lot of bananas in your future!
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
and finally - thanks paul for sharing a pic of you! it is tempting for me to do the same!


Yes Indeed. I should have complemented Paul on getting up his pic too! Its obviously a growing trend. I am getting a musician feel from this pic for some reason. I feel you need a guitar to go with that cool pic.

Mark.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark, re: yours Thu May 01, 2014 2:25 pm

Please understand my reasons for slightly altering the name of this thread compared with your suggestion. Thinking about the most apt title, I finally arrived at this variation because “10th Equal house cusp” is something any astrologer can relate to, whereas “Nonagesimal” is not.

Folks who have been following us on the prior thread will know already that by saying Equal, we don't mean to exclude any house system using 30° divisions of the wheel.

Also, I think that the astrologers interested in our topic are generally those who are interested in comparing various house systems, and I have reasons to believe that there are actually plenty of them!

Last but not least, by the thread's title, I would like to make obvious its interconnectedness with the more theoretical "Equal thread".

Quote:
I am wondering if the distinction between occupation and vocation might help us sort out the difference between Nonagesimal and MC? While an occupation is a job, a vocation is a calling. I am recycling some comments from another thread here:

The word “vocation,” comes from the Latin vocare, means “calling.” When we take our skills, abilities and values into consideration, a vocation is that thing we find ourselves naturally drawn towards, that thing that we do because we love it, because it matters deeply to us, and that we would do if money weren’t an issue. Vocation allows you to 'Follow your bliss'' as Joseph Campbell said.


Beautiful, Mark. Thanks for this.

Quote:
Perhaps the MC is reflecting our highest potential as a vocation while the Nonasegimal is more about the occupation we earn our living with?


I see it this way, too.

However, upon studying various relevant chart examples just recently, my conclusion is that the occupation (10th cusp) will indeed often be the means by which an individual expresses their vocation (MC), regardless of whether the MC falls into X or not. - Such as we see exemplified in my chart of Samuel Hahnemann above.

It goes without saying that vocation and occupation are two quite different things for many people, and often to their deep regret. Invariably, you will see their actual occupation depicted in their chart in some manner, nonetheless, and the 10th house would naturally be one of your first considerations.

There may be people quite satisfied with doing a certain thing more for making a living, while devoting their leisure time to their true passion. But generally, yes, it is truly a great blessing if one is able to let vocation and occupation coincide with each other.

Obviously then, in counselling people unsatisfied with their jobs we may consider guiding them towards expressing their true vocation through their occupation, or their MC through their 10th house.

For instance, a journalist who has the Nonagesimal in Gemini and the MC in 9th, and who is working for a daily newspaper without finding much satisfaction in this, could consider professionally writing about themes philosophical or metaphysical.

Michael
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Paul
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
The chart for the former world chess champion Bobby Fischer is interesting....


Wow, what a great example Mark.
I think, in addition to seeing the pivotal role of planets at the nonagesimal here, we also see a very obvious contrary to sect Mars very angular, and, in this instance, therefore overcoming the nonagesimal. I find it interesting he was anti-semitic, especially with regards his mother being Jewish, and we see the t-square with Pluto and Mars on the angles to the Moon in the equal 10th.

I wonder if Venus had greater dignity, rather than being out of sect and in her detriment, whether we would have seen something more obvious in her symbolism with regards something of what Fischer is known for. Then I wondered, if we just consider it the 9th, then we have Lord 4 peregrine in the 9th, and in detriment, and wondered if it described a homeless wanderer, wandering abroad, such as happened in the latter part of his life.
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

and finally - thanks paul for sharing a pic of you! it is tempting for me to do the same!


Mark wrote:
J
Yes Indeed. I should have complemented Paul on getting up his pic too! Its obviously a growing trend. I am getting a musician feel from this pic for some reason. I feel you need a guitar to go with that cool pic.


Thanks, actually I wish I could play an instrument of any kind, but I really can't.

But enough of this monkey business, back to the astrology! Wink
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