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10th Equal house cusp verses MC
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Haha, so you've given up on investigating internal motivations? Smile


Not at all - I simply decided to focus on part 2 of our working hypothesis first:

Quote:
"2...is the Nonagesimal one of the factors for profession and actions?


The answer to this is a resounding YES!

Studying your samples, the Nonagesimal does indicate the profession - considerably more often than the MC, in fact.

But we should be careful to avoid zebra thinking.

Michael wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, considering that the MC and the Nonagesimal are both commonly being used as 10th cusp (depending on the house system), it doesn't seem off the mark to assume that there is some kind of close resonance going on between the two.
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Larxene



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Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Methodological Issues

A problem with the research above is the technique used. Your question in the other thread was about why the MC is used instead of the Nonagesimal, implying that the MC's current function may be better performed by the Nonagesimal instead.

If you would like to illustrate this possibility, applying the ancient techniques involving the MC on both the Nonagesimal and the MC and then comparing the results would create a more convincing case.

For example, we can apply Ptolemy's approach in Book IV, Quality of Action. Ptolemy used two factors: the planet(s) that makes a phase with the Sun within +/- 7 days, and the planet that "beholds" the MC (conjunction is probably meant here, but maybe the Lord of the MC can be used as well).

The first factor is a constant variable, because the planet(s) in phasis is the same one whether we use the MC or Nonagesimal for the second factor. In other words, both factors are independent of each other. So we do not need to worry about making adjustments when switching from the MC to the Nonagesimal.


The ancients, as far as I know, did not use the sign on the MC to delineate profession. Therefore, even without checking the signs' occupational associations, the conclusion of the research above is that, using the new technique, the Nonagesimal is a better predictive indicator.

However, as it is not an ancient method, the use of the MC by the ancients is not refuted.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:

However, as it is not an ancient method, the use of the MC by the ancients is not refuted.

hi larxene,

can you clarify what 'it' means in the sentence above? i am guessing this is in reference to the nonagesimal, but just want to make sure.

Larxene wrote:
Ptolemy used two factors ( for occupation - james note) : the planet(s) that makes a phase with the Sun within +/- 7 days, and the planet that "beholds" the MC (conjunction is probably meant here, but maybe the Lord of the MC can be used as well).


regarding the planet making a phase with the sun within + or - 7 days, i was unaware of this and have been going on the planet that is rising immediately prior to the sun rising as a strong planet having a connection to occupation unless other factors outweigh it. in a previous example using einstein we can note how jupiter is the first planet to rise prior to the sun rising and conclude jupiter has some relevance in terms of his occupation.. this could change if the +/- 7 day idea is set in place, although not in the einstein example.

when did the m.c. start getting used in horoscopes? my impression is the nonagesimal would have been used prior to it. maybe i am wrong on this, but it is somewhat in keeping with the idea of whole sign houses...
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Larxene,

Your classically inspired methodology sounds interesting, to be sure. I'm looking forward to see it practically applied. Arrow

Michael
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Larxene



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Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James,

'It' in that sentence refers to the technique of using the sign of the MC alone to delineate professions. I have not read a lot of authors, but I have not seen this method of delineating professions in the traditional authors I've read.


James, the +/- 7 days is a consensus between today's astrologers. It was the accepted time-frame in which a planet can be considered to be 'in phasis', or making a phase. I am not sure whether this time-frame has been mentioned by the traditional authors; I have only studied phasis from forum posts for the most part.

I don't know when the Nonagesimal has been in use. You will have to peruse the Hellenistic and Babylonian texts to find out. Smile



Michael,

We'll see if I can get motivated to do it. Smile




EDIT:

James, I found the quote from a traditional author that talks about the +/- 7 day convention. It's not a modern consensus after all:

http://heavenastrolabe.net/stars-trade-magistery-profession-and-inclinations/

Read the quote from Paulus Alexandrinus.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks larxene,

here is a wider quote from paulus alexandrinus and margherita which is off margherita's website - a skyscript member who posts here from time to time.

"Be careful that what Ptolemy signifies for “oriental” it is not always plain, because “oriental” in Ptolemy is just the most important phase, left or right of the Sun is not important. Let come back again to Paulus Alexandrinus:

We should take into consideration which planet takes the application of the Moon or the Sun, or which star performed since seven days or is going to perform in seven days from the birth its matutine phase for Saturn, Jupiter or Mars , or its vespertine phase for Mercury and Venus.

When the planet is invisible or under the sunbeams, cannot act like significator of Profession, it could just show the inclination. All Ptolemy commentators , like Lilly here, agree that:

If then any of these is posited in places of Heaven fit to designe Magistery, that is, in the 10th, 1st or 7th, in their owne Dignities, not Combust, or under the Sun beames, that Planet so posited, or those Planets, shall have signification of the Art, Profession or Magistery the Native is inclinable unto."

the area i bolded is something i don't completely understand. last time i tried to figure out these terms was a while ago, but i know it is about planetary phase and that the planetary phase for the outer 3 is different then the inner 2 - venus and mercury.

there are some conditions in order that this planet rising before the sun can be considered. obviously there are many other considerations too, so we aren't given a fool proof recipe for defining profession off the chart and in many ways i think it becomes a guessing game which is part of the reason why we can entertain the idea of the sign on the midheaven, or the ruler of the midheaven, or the nonagesimal as all being potential pointers in finding out about a persons possible profession.. these other considerations listed in the quotes are more tools aimed at the same thing..

obviously each chart needs to be read in an individual manner.. back to einstein - jupiter qualifies the most as i see it and it happens to be the ruler of his midheaven, as opposed to his nonagesimal.. i don't know if this is due the strength of jupiter alone, or over the fact it has rulership over the midheaven.. it would be good to be able to keep it all separate which is impossible..
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Larxene



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Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
the area i bolded is something i don't completely understand. last time i tried to figure out these terms was a while ago, but i know it is about planetary phase and that the planetary phase for the outer 3 is different then the inner 2 - venus and mercury.


What is it exactly that you do not understand about the quote? I find it to be quite clear.



james_m wrote:
there are some conditions in order that this planet rising before the sun can be considered.


What are you talking about here?



james_m wrote:
obviously there are many other considerations too, so we aren't given a fool proof recipe for defining profession off the chart and in many ways i think it becomes a guessing game which is part of the reason why we can entertain the idea of the sign on the midheaven, or the ruler of the midheaven, or the nonagesimal as all being potential pointers in finding out about a persons possible profession.. these other considerations listed in the quotes are more tools aimed at the same thing..


Can you rephrase this?

I am not saying to follow Ptolemy's method to the letter. I am saying that Ptolemy's documented technique of determining profession happens to give us some insight on how he (and maybe others) used the MC back in the day. By investigating that, we may be able to discover why they used the MC instead of the Nonagesimal.

I am not opposed to innovation, but I prefer to evaluate ancient methods in ancient terms, when it comes to testing their effectiveness.



james_m wrote:
obviously each chart needs to be read in an individual manner.. back to einstein - jupiter qualifies the most as i see it and it happens to be the ruler of his midheaven, as opposed to his nonagesimal..


I am inclined to disagree. What part of the nature of Jupiter gives the indication that he was a clerk in a patent office and a physicist? Besides, Jupiter is averse to Pisces, and by extension, the MC.
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Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi larxene,

thanks for continuing on with the conversation! the first thing i don't understand is the words matutine and vespertine.. i think one means oriental to the sun and the other occidental, but i am not totally sure. also - whether a planet is taking the application of the moon or sun.. is it one, or both, or does it hinge on sect? or?

this is what i mean by 'conditions'.. maybe 'rules' would be a better choice of words. lilly seems to emphasize the idea of dignified planets in the 1st, 10th or 7th as having some place in deciding one's profession.. i don't get that from the ptolemy quotes.

as for jupiter being adverse to the sign pisces by being in the sign aquarius - i understand the concept of aversion, but i don't buy it. in einsteins chart jupiter is in the 8th sign from the ascendant making a 135 aspect to his ascendant as well. something about einstein being able to penetrate into the mysteries of the universe is gotten off this position of jupiter relative to the rest of the chart or me. however this might also hinge on the opposition to uranus to a good degree as well seeing as uranus is the handle planet of his bucket chart.. as for the clerical job he held down and how one can see that in his chart - i suppose one could suggest this is based off jupiter being in aversion to the midheaven. i tend to think that clerical jobs are more of a 6th house type of work which is where his natal moon, ruler of his ascendant is located.. he would find a certain security in a job like that, but it falls short of this other element of his personality as described by his sun in pisces - the sect light - which again goes back to the jupiter placement - the rising planet oriental his sun..

i suppose it could be argued the saturn/mercury conjunction on the nonagesimal is the clerical work outlet. i mostly think of this as someone who is a deep thinker, or suffers from mental problems - a little bit of both perhaps..
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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello again larxene,

just for fun, i thought i would take a look at another one of the charts you shared in your post on page 4.. it was random - i started with the first one in the mc in the 11th - which is where the mc lands in my chart - the 11th..

i had never heard of this person christiaan huygens before.. interesting person! let me quote a little bit from the wikipedia page on him here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Huygens

"(he) was a prominent Dutch mathematician and scientist. He is known particularly as an astronomer, physicist, probabilist and horologist.

Huygens was a leading scientist of his time. His work included early telescopic studies of the rings of Saturn and the discovery of its moon Titan, the invention of the pendulum clock and other investigations in timekeeping. He published major studies of mechanics and optics, and a pioneer work on games of chance."

it seems like he led a very productive life in his time on earth. what do you think we would look for in someone who led such a diverse life with these special talents that overflow into what gets defined as his 'profession'? or, are we left to ponder his internal motivation as explaining the curiousity that he demonstrated towards the universe in some astrological way that might be able to suffice?

feel free to offer your own unique interpretation on his chart. here is what i see that makes sense to me (hindsight astrology - i think i could write a book with this title)..

what is especially interesting about this chart is saturn at 19 libra retro square the ascendant degree.. now maybe the time is rounded off. they give it an AA rating though.. it is a nocturnal chart, so saturn would be considered the greater malefic here and in opposition to the sun, while square onto the ascendant - in capricorn - it also rules the ascendant.. now it is in the tropical zodiac sign of libra so perhaps this makes it a much more positive influence on the chart then it otherwise would be if one followed some of these theories like sect, or retrograde and etc..

it is right on the nonagesimal or 10th equal house cusp.. otherwise it is in the 9th using most other types of house systems.. for someone referred to as an horologist it is especially interesting as i think saturn has a very close connection to the concept and idea of time.. he also made saturns rings a part of his study, and was the discoverer of saturns moon 'titan'..

lets use this concept of the moon (nocturnal chart) and what it applies to in order to see if it can help us define profession as i understand ptolemy suggesting.. it is applying by sextile to mars in pisces in the equal house 3rd, or 2nd most other house systems.. mars in pisces rules the midheaven in this chart and is strong by planetary phase. mars is a singleton planet in the water element in this chart. however, i can't really get much connection of mars in this chart to this mans life path, unless i want to go back to mars being ruled by jupiter in the 1st house - which coincidentally is one of lillys focal points - planets in the 1st, 10th or 7th as being a vocational indicator... jupiter to use your comment from earlier - is in aversion to the ascendant here.. i still see the planet as strong by pp and in relation to the overall chart. again it is in the sign of aquarius - just as was einsteins jupiter position.

does the moon application to mars tell you anything special? the moon is ruled by saturn which i feel speaks more directly to me on all of his achievements and what he was publicly known for.. in this example i feel the nonagesimal is a much better barometer of understanding this man, then the midheaven!

venus is the planet rising before the sun in this chart and considered a vocational indicator by some (don't have the sources, but going on memory here). venus is at 0 aries and mostly seems like a dumb note to me in this chart - mostly as i don't know the man more fully. it does rule saturn in libra, while applying directly to jupiter rising which would suggest he was on good terms with others for the most part, or perhaps that his attraction to discovery could be captured in this 3rd house( 4th whole sign) venus in sextile to jupiter rising.. perhaps venus at the sun/uranus midpoint works better for catching his muse, although we would need to include the use of the outers and midpoints to get to this..

it seems his life was largely one of research. i suppose it would have to be in order to accomplish what he was able to.. he is also said to have suffered from depression.. how much of that is in the moon rising in capricorn, or saturn overseeing the ascendant so strongly, i don't know.. the moon is applying to the saturn/venus midpoint which could also speak directly into these character traits. one certainly wouldn't pick it up thinking of jupiter in the first house.. perhaps the aversion of jupiter to the ascendant makes more sense here.. i suppose it all depends on how one defines being a scientist, or someone involved over the course of their life in the pursuits that he is known for..

the mc is in the 11th house here.. i am not sure what this means.. he seems like a man of many talents though.. he doesn't have all his eggs in one basket! perhaps in this example the nonagesimal seems more pronounced given the fact saturn is sitting directly on it.. i am still not convinced of the exactness of the 2am birth time given that this is from the 17th century.. i note he worked on developing more accurate clocks then were available in his time... how his dad could know it was 2am exactly seems hard for me to accept.. maybe the devil is in the details!



Larxene wrote:
1. Hypothesis

Using the Equal House system,

1. ...does the house position of the MC show the internal motivation of the native?
(a) If so, is the native's internal motivation dependent on the topics of the house the MC is in?

2. ...does the Nonagesimal show the profession and actions of the native?

MC in 11th
1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Huygens,_Christiaan
.
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
the first thing i don't understand is the words matutine and vespertine.. i think one means oriental to the sun and the other occidental, but i am not totally sure.


Let's look at Robert Schmidt's translation. The equivalent of this passage can be found in "Chapter 26. Concerning What One Does":

"The determination concerning what one does is grasped through its keenness from the stars having a fast motion (I mean Ares, Aphrodite, and Hermes), though certainly not every art and science is studied from these three.

The places that make the dealings all the more effectual in relation to the stars present in them are these: all the pivots, and the post-ascensions of these, and the sixth from the Horoskopos - the zoidion of the Midheaven being preferred above the other points, and the second zoidion from the Horoskopos being preferred among the post-ascensions.

But if none of the aforesaid stars stand upon one of these places, nor indeed upon the Lot of Fortune, it is fitting to seek which of the stars of Kronos, Zeus, Ares has come to the notice of the Moon or Sun by application, or should happen to have made a morning appearance (or which of the stars of either Aphrodite or Hermes has made an evening rising) seven days before, or seven days after birth."



The sentences in bold suggest that phasis is meant here, where a planet, from a state of combustion, becomes matutine or vespertine.

However, it is important to notice that Paulus considers only the heliacal risings to be strong; he believes heliacal settings to be weak. In modern practice, some astrologers find the settings to be not weak, but strong (maybe just not as strong as risings).



james_m wrote:
also - whether a planet is taking the application of the moon or sun.. is it one, or both, or does it hinge on sect? or?


Yeah, the text does not explain that part. We can only speculate. I think sect plays a role. The Sun is preferred in diurnal births, the Moon in nocturnal. However, if no planet applies to the Sun in a diurnal birth, then we can probably consider the Moon's application(s), even when the birth is diurnal.

Alternatively we may also want to consider whether the Sun or the Moon is better configured to the Midheaven. In cases where both planets have an application, this may be another factor to think about.



james_m wrote:
this is what i mean by 'conditions'.. maybe 'rules' would be a better choice of words. lilly seems to emphasize the idea of dignified planets in the 1st, 10th or 7th as having some place in deciding one's profession.. i don't get that from the ptolemy quotes.


Ptolemy isn't everything, of course. If we look at Paulus's opinion on this, we find a similar technique:

Quote:
The places that make the dealings all the more effectual in relation to the stars present in them are these: all the pivots, and the post-ascensions of these, and the sixth from the Horoskopos - the zoidion of the Midheaven being preferred above the other points, and the second zoidion from the Horoskopos being preferred among the post-ascensions.


Indeed, Maternus would agree with this:

Quote:
1. Now we must learn which planets determine the occupations of men and what those occupations are; then we must observe what house that planet is in. Mars, Mercury and Venus determine occupations for men. The one in any chart which determines the occupations is the one on the MC or in right or left trine to the MC, or on other angles.
[Liber Quartus, XXI]


Logically, it makes sense, because the planets on the angles are more effective in their influences; the quantity of their effects is higher than planets not on angles. Just as it is reasonable to choose a profession based on one's personal strengths, it is also rational to choose strong planets for the task of ruling one's praxis.

Note that this condition is actually separate from the condition where a planet makes a heliacal phase. A planet on an angle is strong. A planet making a phase is also strong. If a planet is making a phasis AND is angular, it is even better, as then the planet is doubly strong.


james_m wrote:
something about einstein being able to penetrate into the mysteries of the universe is gotten off this position of jupiter relative to the rest of the chart or me.


Hmm. Funny, I find the idea of discovering the mysteries of the world to be more of a Mercury and/or Saturn thing...

I suppose you are linking Jupiter with the 8th, which, in the modern rendition of the houses, would stand for secrets.
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Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi larxene,

the robert schmidt quote is as clear as mud, but thanks.. i am sticking with my definition until someone comes along to explain it better. i am unable to comment today on your other comments, but would like to comment on your last personal thoughts shown below..

i think the water element has an association with exploring mysteries and i kind of touched on this by mentioning mars as the singleton planet in water and ruler of christiaan huygens chart.. now a mystery is a mystery, or it wouldn't be a mystery anymore, would it? perhaps some things don't remain a mystery and your basis for mercury and saturn having some association with this is relevant.. is that your personal experience doing astrology, or from another book? to use another example that was discussed here on skyscript very recently, take a look at edgar cayces chart... the 8th house is in focus and also contains the ruler of the ascendant. those planets in the 8th which could also include the mercury/saturn conjunction would work too! and, it is all in the water element - a triple slam dunk! doubt you will see those words in any of the old books, but it works with all that water their, lol...

edit - i just remembered cayces chart is rated C, so the element and mercury/saturn conjunction still hold, but the house is in question..

Larxene wrote:

Hmm. Funny, I find the idea of discovering the mysteries of the world to be more of a Mercury and/or Saturn thing...

I suppose you are linking Jupiter with the 8th, which, in the modern rendition of the houses, would stand for secrets.
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Larxene



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Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, do whatever you like. I find Schmidt to be quite clear in most places. Maybe it is simply the difference in our training.

I am having doubts about the signs' elemental qualities, and I do not use the elements in the way you are using. So in the end, because our roots are different, we just end up with different conclusions. Which is fine, as every person has his own telos in this world, in my opinion. Smile



I'll check out Huygens later. He is quite an interesting character. I would consider him to be a mathematician, natural philosopher (though we would consider it natural science these days), astronomer, and a scholar. We need not confine a person to ONE profession.

Besides, those who are good in math tends to be good in the natural sciences as well. Astronomy is an application of mathematics and physics.



As for the Mercury/Saturn thing, it is both what I read and what I experienced. I have that combination in a non-water sign, and I have a strong interest in mysteries: the occult, divination, astrology, crime and detective stories, ghost stories, the secrets of other people, controversies, etc.
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
the first thing i don't understand is the words matutine and vespertine.. i think one means oriental to the sun and the other occidental, but i am not totally sure.


Hi James,
These are Latin words: matutine means [of/relating to ] 'morning' and vespertine 'evening'. They are used, for example, to describe whether a planet or star's helical rising occurs near the ascendant as a morning event (then they are oriental), or the descendant as an evening event (occidental). There is a brief definition of oriental/occidental in the glossary link below but if you want a fuller discussion it would be better to start a new thread.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/oriental.html
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Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's talk some more about Albert...



Jupiter in Aquarius – ruling Einstein's Sun, Moon, and MC – certainly represents a major influence on his contemplative outlook on the universe, and motivates him to explore its secrets (8th house). The MC together with the Sun in Equal 9th signify Einstein's internal aim for higher levels of understanding.

The Moon in Sagittarius and 6th (ruling the ASC) is relevant here, too, of course.

Pisces' other ruler Neptune in 10th shows how his visionary abilities got translated into Einstein's professional life. Neptune's dispositor Venus in the same sign and house provides an important channel for this.

She is in a wide conjunction with Mercury, the both of them being the most elevated planets in the chart, with the Nonagesimal almost at their midpoint. This combination strongly speaks for Einstein expressing in his profession a synthesis of scientific thinking and imaginative/artistic abilities.

The emphasis on Pisces and Sagittarius made this man a true eclectic, or syncretist! Some people have suspected that Einstein wasn't such a great genius, after all, because he had borrowed some of his concepts from other researchers like Lorentz, Poincaré etc. Not all of this criticism is fair. It is true that many of the parts and pieces of the Theory of Relativity were already existent in the scientific literature of the day, but it took a mind like Einstein's to fuse them together into a coherent whole. This is the nature of scientific progress, in general.

Neptune is also certainly symbolic for the most outstanding feature of Einstein's theory, namely that space and time can be stretched and bent, and, indeed, twisted like a pretzel!

Einstein's crooked ways did not find the approval of Nikola Tesla and some others who preferred to continue thinking of space as following the rules of Euclidean geometry (three dimensions at right angles to each other, end of the story!). This controversy somehow mirrors our recent debate concerning Equal verses unequal houses!

The close conjunction of Saturn and Mercury can be seen as a symbol for the nature of scientific investigation. Especially in the traditional view Saturn is also attributed with meditation and contemplation. Mercury rules Albert's 12th, making him temporarily go into seclusion for pursuing a concept.

Regardless of his rather “bad” cosmic condition in the chart, Saturn's influence here was certainly crucial in giving structure to Albert's visionary thinking. It is probably safe to say that he was no such talented mathematician like Tesla. That's why he relied on some colleague's help for making his theories mathematically presentable.

The Saturn/Mercury conjunction near the Nonagesimal – together with the general emphasis of the upper hemisphere – would make Einstein a really “objective” thinker. In fact, so much so that he would never accept the universal subjectivity and ambiguity suggested by quantum mechanics, notwithstanding all the evidence for it (“God doesn't throw dice”).

In conclusion, it would indeed seem to me that Einstein's internal motivation as indicated by house and sign position of the MC - the visionary exploration of creation - found its way into his professional career represented by the Nonagesimal and 10th.
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi larxene,

thanks for your additional comments which i enjoy reading.

it is difficult to get outside one's own subjectivity that forms so much of astrology. in commenting on your mercury/saturn and coming to the conclusion you do - i do the same thing all the time - it is difficult to know just how much subjectivity is the basis for the conclusion.. fwiw, i also have a close mercury/saturn connection, a trine in partial - but not in water either. i have water in my chart too though, so i have mostly attributed my interest in the occult thru the water placements. and you are probably correct in observing how we use the breakdown of elements differently which is a reflection on our different approach to astrology - neither one right or wrong. thanks for saying that too btw. message me privately if you want to exchange personal astro data.

deb - thanks for your quick comment with a link for the latin definition of these words. when is someone going to write a great book on planetary phases and make the important distinctions between the planets beyond earth, verses the ones between earth and sun? i had heard you were considering something along these lines?

michael - thanks for the personal insights on einsteins chart and how they relate back to your initial desire to define the differences between the m.c. and the nonagesimal, while using the idea of larxene's - internal motivation, or what i think was what larxene first brought up to help define the differences here. you seem to confirm his hypothesis in this example. i would be curious if you had anything to say on huygens chart regarding this as well... thanks!
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