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10th Equal house cusp verses MC
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Hypothesis

Using the Equal House system,

1. ...does the house position of the MC show the internal motivation of the native?
(a) If so, is the native's internal motivation dependent on the topics of the house the MC is in?

2. ...does the Nonagesimal show the profession and actions of the native?



2. Sample

Here is a small non-random sample of charts from Astro-databank that I have selected for our research.

At first I thought about posting the chart images, but that would take up too much space, so instead I provided the links.


MC in 10th
1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pope_Benedict_XVI
2. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pope_Francis_I.
3. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pope_Pius_XII
4. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sartre,_Jean-Paul
5. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Beauvoir,_Simone_de
6. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cole,_Nat_%22King%22
7. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf
8. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Steinbrecher,_Ed
9. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Luciani,_Dennis
10. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Salk,_Jonas
11. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bloom,_Orlando
12. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Russell,_Bertrand

MC in 9th
1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Einstein,_Albert
2. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Schmidt,_Robert
3. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Spielberg,_Steven
4. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Buys_Ballot,_Christophorus
5. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gauguin,_Paul
6. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Christie,_Agatha
7. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blair,_Cherie
8. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Had%C3%A8s,_Alain
9. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gates,_Bill
10. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald

MC in 8th
1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Conan_Doyle,_Arthur
2. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Schopenhauer,_Arthur
3. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blair,_Tony
4. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Fleming,_Alexander
5. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Anastasia,_Grand_Duchess
6. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Alexandra,_Czarina_of_Russia
7. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Victoria,_Queen_of_England
8. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lasker,_Emmanuel
9. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Harlin,_Renny
10. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Campbell,_Kim

MC in 11th
1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Huygens,_Christiaan
2. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Curie,_Marie
3. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Frederik,_Crown_Prince_of_Denmark
4. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Palme,_Olof
5. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Olav_V,_King_of_Norway
6. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lagerstrom,_Victoria
7. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lipman,_Maureen
8. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hunter,_Bob
9. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Prince_Edward,_Duke_of_Kent_and_Strathearn
10. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Holkeri,_Harri
11. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mustelin,_Nils
12. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gustave,_King_of_Sweden



3. Chart Selection

Based on 9 hours of searching, MC in 10th and 9th were almost equally common, whereas MC in 8th was quite rare. MC in 11th was even rarer. I have only seen two or three MC in 12th charts.

Firstly, the issue is about selecting accurate birth times. Ideally we would like to have AA charts, where the birth times are obtained from Birth Certificates or Birth Records. In reality it is not always easy, especially when the charts need to fulfill other conditions. I did what I could, selecting AA charts whenever I can, but the sample above contains AA, A and a few B charts. Our fellow forum user James Alexander would probably eliminate some of the charts here, as someone from a rigourous background. He would reason that some of the AA charts are still rounded off to the nearest 15 minutes. Smile

Note that the selection method is not random; I searched for people I know, sometimes selecting people I find interesting, and later I also searched in places where the MC is more likely to be found in the 11th or 8th.

The third issue is information. Sometimes I find a chart that fits the conditions (accurate and MC in the right place) but there is little information on the native. I have had to eliminate quite a few charts like these. There are still about three such charts in the 'MC in 11th' category.

Finally, there are some charts which are labelled AA despite the fact that the source says the person is born between hour X and hour X+1. That's a one hour range! I rejected about 5 of these charts, but included one of them in 'MC in 11th' due to lack of charts.



I think that's all. I'll analyse the charts later. Michael, please check whether that is hypothesis we wish to investigate.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Michael, please check whether that is hypothesis we wish to investigate.


Yes, Larxene, let's start with that as our working hypothesis.

You have formulated it well, in a really methodological manner. Thumbs up

And I applaud you for the effort you made gathering all these examples! Lala Happy

Quote:
1. ...does the house position of the MC show the internal motivation of the native?


Right, that's the first part of the question.

For clarity of terms, I would define the internal motivation as that which moves us forwards, that which we are internally pursuing. Whether we are (already) conscious of it or not.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, re: yours Wed May 07, 2014 9:37 am

Thanks Paul

Great information!

Looking forward to more when you have time.

Cheers
Michael
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james_m



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:

In what limb he suffers (p191)
Quote:
For the Ascendant designates the head; by the second is denoted the neck; the hands and shoulders are designated the third...



it appears this concept of connecting houses and signs (1st house has a parallel with the 1st sign and etc. etc.) has been going on for longer then 'modern' astrology and has it's origins further back then some want to acknowledge.. deb?

larxene - thanks for your posts. i thought it was interesting what you said about saturn in teslas chart. one comment that could be added is the strength of saturn by planetary phase is more pronounced. of course an astrologer has to weigh this will all the other considerations. on every other level saturn is weak by standard analysis. it is only when one considers outer planets that the closest aspect in the chart which is between saturn and pluto show the possibility of a more modern concept - close astrological aspects - as possibly having some bearing on why he was able to accomplish as much as he did. there a few close midpoints to saturn here as well hard aspects to midpoints which is something cosmobiologists also consider..
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

it appears this concept of connecting houses and signs (1st house has a parallel with the 1st sign and etc. etc.) has been going on for longer then 'modern' astrology and has it's origins further back then some want to acknowledge.. deb?


I think it's worth being clear on this. I can't remember what Deb's book says, but most people acknowledge that there is an historical link between signs and houses when it comes to the idea of 'body parts'. I will show later that there's a precedent for this with ships (ie, it's not unique to medicine).

The thing that people disagree with, which is indeed modern, is the astrological alphabet, which posits that Sign=House=Planet. So for example Libra=7th House=Venus and vice versa. That the second house signifies money, and therefore so does Venus and Taurus. That Pisces is spiritual etc. and therefore so too is the 12th house. That planets in the 4th show how emotional and caring you are (Cancer).

But we quickly see problems when we try to associate Saturn with recognition and career (10th House) or with Venus and lawsuits and enemies (7th house) etc.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks paul,

i think the main criticism of the idea of equating signs with houses and planets too is how it turns everything into mashed potatoes on a plate, as opposed to delicate little potatoes each with a specific, quantifiable taste, lol.. i like my mashed potatoes with gravy, lol.. where can i read about that in the astrology cook books?
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks paul,

i think the main criticism of the idea of equating signs with houses and planets too is how it turns everything into mashed potatoes on a plate, as opposed to delicate little potatoes each with a specific, quantifiable taste, lol.. i like my mashed potatoes with gravy, lol.. where can i read about that in the astrology cook books?


I like to mash my own potatoes I guess.

Also, you talk to an Irish man of potatoes, you know you are going to both make me not only hungry but also make follow your posts with a new found respect and attention hitherto unseen.

But I agree, one of the things I notice with people who learn astrology is not understanding the difference between the signs and houses and whilst I do recommend this astrological alphabet as a nice quick mnemonic for getting the idea in place, I also think that as soon as we become fluent with the terms we drop the idea completely so we can add more nuance. But until we are at a level where we understand the planets and the signs and the houses on their own merit, these simple ABCs can be helpful to beginners. I presume that is why they came about in the first place, when astrology needed to be taught to the mass public.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, re: yours Wed May 07, 2014 5:08 pm

The way I look at it, the zodiac, the wheel of houses, and the planets are three different and differentiable levels. They should be taught as such, even though it is inevitable (and not always inappropriate, either) that, in modern astrological practice, they sometimes tend to blur.

Whether or not this was the reason for more traditionally minded astrologers to reject seeing the signs and the houses as analogous, I cannot decide. But I do think that this question is an extremely important one regarding astrology's philosophical foundations.

In this respect, it makes a lot of sense to me to think of astrology's three wheels (including the planets) as expressing the same archetypes, albeit in different ways. Plus, there are just too many very obvious parallels between signs and houses, even by their traditional descriptions, as James started demonstrating.

If we are talking about traditional sources, what is further supporting such a view with little ambiguity is the precise assignment of the same body part to a sign as well as to a house also by an astrologer like Al-Kindi (as we all know now).

You really don't need to be a great logician in order to see:

If body parts = signs, and body parts = houses, then signs = houses.
QED

Mark wrote:
Quote:
That was a specific tradition relating exclusively to medical astrology. Nothing else.


Except, it directly pertains to the BIGGIE how we are "supposed" to look at the basic foundations of astrology in the first place.

That the attributions of body parts to signs and their analogous houses holds true empirically seems evident from the published experiences of many an astromedical practitioner. I may mention my six years of working in close association with a medical doctor as another reference here.

But who is to argue with Al Kindi anyway... Smile

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Deb
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
Paul wrote:

In what limb he suffers (p191)
Quote:
For the Ascendant designates the head; by the second is denoted the neck; the hands and shoulders are designated the third...



it appears this concept of connecting houses and signs (1st house has a parallel with the 1st sign and etc. etc.) has been going on for longer then 'modern' astrology and has it's origins further back then some want to acknowledge.. deb?


I'm not really able to follow this or other forum discussions at the moment - too much illness in my household and other pressing issues on my mind. If you are interested I covered this point in my book, showing how it was an ancient attribution, and explaining (for example in my introduction) why it shouldn't be over-relied upon to suggest that the main historical attributions of the houses are derived from the signs. I would not discount anything as having to been able to lend its influence to house meanings, but of course, for the ancient anatomical associations it is quite possible that it was house meanings extended into signs, rather than vice versa - the attribution of parts of a ship is following the same principle of anatomical association. I'm not sure why it is being treated as some kind of new and startling realization that has not been previously acknowledged, but once I have published my own arguments, I think I should let others use them or disagree with them as they see fit.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
If you are interested I covered this point in my book, showing how it was an ancient attribution, and explaining (for example in my introduction) why it shouldn't be over-relied upon to suggest that the main historical attributions of the houses are derived from the signs. I would not discount anything as having to been able to lend its influence to house meanings, but of course, for the ancient anatomical associations it is quite possible that it was house meanings extended into signs, rather than vice versa - the attribution of parts of a ship is following the same principle of anatomical association. I'm not sure why it is being treated as some kind of new and startling realization that has not been previously acknowledged, but once I have published my own arguments, I think I should let others use them or disagree with them as they see fit.


I really need to re-read your book. It was one of the first books I read which offered a new spin on the houses (previously having thought Howard Sasportas' book on the houses was the most important). I seem to have forgotten much more than I have remembered.

Thanks for this post.
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have recently purchased Deb's presentation on the development of house meanings from the AA website & it is excellent!
Highly recommended! Thumbs up Very Happy
Judy
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb

Deb wrote:
Quote:
I would not discount anything as having to been able to lend its influence to house meanings, but of course, for the ancient anatomical associations it is quite possible that it was house meanings extended into signs, rather than vice versa - the attribution of parts of a ship is following the same principle of anatomical association.


I'm not sure why it would be essential if the sign meanings were extended to the houses, or rather vice versa? Wouldn't the result be quite the same in either case?

However, historically speaking, the question is interesting.

Quote:
I'm not sure why it is being treated as some kind of new and startling realization that has not been previously acknowledged


I'm rather under the impression that contemporary traditional astrologers treat it as some kind of new and startling realization that the houses would not reflect the signs. Smile

Best wishes
Michael
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james_m



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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks deb,

i am sorry to hear of the health issues in your family.. i hope they pass quickly.

i will have to re-read your book which i read a few years ago.. it (houses=signs=modern astrology take) came up based on some of the earlier commentary on the same thread here.. i just kept it going, lol..

i find it fascinating to consider this in reverse. signs got their meanings from the houses. that seems like a novel idea to me for some reason.. i'd be curious the accumulated knowledge that might motivate you to say that.. perhaps someone else would like to talk about this?

the reason the zodiac signs were different sizes was due that houses were different sizes and all that kind of back and forth. it could get interesting! part of me is saying this in jest!@
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, we are getting a bit off-track here...
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Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

larxene,

just using your first example pope benedict xv1, i find it difficult to have a clear answer to the questions in your hypothesis. when the mc and nonagesimal are in the same sign, it becomes more complicated. i am not sure what this means. i look at close aspects to either for greater definition. in this example, jupiter on the ascendant seems to overshadow much of the chart and is ruler of both mc and nonagesimal.

a more orthodox or conservative role or place in some religious institution seems suggested by saturn in sag in the 9th. the close trine of sun/neptune making a very close trine to the mc degree also seems to define the role of some spiritual leader that he played too.

in interpreting a chart like this, i would see a strong emphasis in sag as a result of both the mc and nonagesimal being in this sign. this is strengthened greatly by having jupiter in such a strong position on the ascendant almost exact as well.

i might even make the case for solar houses here with saturn ruling the solar 10th, which brings us back to the position of saturn in the chart.

it is very interesting how he was the first pope in 800 years to step down from his position as well. this was said to be over health reasons at the time of the annoucement -saturn by transit in opposition to his sun with sun ruling the 6th as well. saturn as malefic of the opposite sect in the 10th seems to make sense from a symbolic pov as well.

perhaps we need to be considering predictive data to the 2 different degree points to see which has greater bearing. as i see it we are really looking at the ascendant degree verses the mc degree and trying to figure out which one has greater bearing. i personally maintain that the ascendant degree is of greater importance and significance, thus an emphasis on the nonagesimal makes sense to me. i still see the m.c. as an important and sensitive degree in the big picture. i am just not sure how to make a distinction here when they are both in the same sign, other then thru aspects to either point, which takes me back to the importance of the ascendant degree.

Larxene wrote:
1. Hypothesis

Using the Equal House system,

1. ...does the house position of the MC show the internal motivation of the native?
(a) If so, is the native's internal motivation dependent on the topics of the house the MC is in?

2. ...does the Nonagesimal show the profession and actions of the native?

1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Pope_Benedict_XVI
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