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10th Equal house cusp verses MC
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Larxene



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Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

I suspect that you have not read the hypothesis carefully. We want to know whether:

(a) the house position of the MC shows the internal motivation, and
(b) whether the nonagesimal shows the profession and actions.

Thus, we are studying the two points on two different grounds. There should be no confusion about this. There is a difference between one's motivation and one's profession/actions.

In high school, I attended school because I wanted to learn something new and profound. Some of my classmates attended school because, well, that's what their parents make them do. Some do it because they wanted to study the sciences and become a doctor (I had a friend who wanted to be a physician since he was 13 years old). We are all students in the same school, maybe even in the same class, but we go to school for different reasons, with different motivations. I hope you can see the difference here.

Of course, we can also make the same statement in reverse order. People can have the same motivation, but go to different professional fields. Accountants, doctors, lawyers; one can surmise that some of them are in it for the money.



The part about determining internal motivation does require a degree of subjectivity, because we are trying to guess or infer what motivates the person.

Regardless, Michael has listed the potential motivations in one of his previous posts, and that is what we are basing our research on (i.e. this is our scope), though it is certainly okay to note motivations that are not listed, as neither Michael nor any of us here are omniscient entities. At least, I am not aware of one. Smile

As for the nonagesimal, it has been noted somewhere that the 10th sign alone may not be a sufficient condition for determining profession and actions. Thus, it is more appropriate to ask whether it is a necessary condition:

"2...is the Nonagesimal one of the factors for profession and actions?"

Michael, I think I like this question better.



Anyone else wants to try guessing the internal motivations of the samples?
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
James,

I suspect that you have not read the hypothesis carefully. We want to know whether:

(a) the house position of the MC shows the internal motivation, and
(b) whether the nonagesimal shows the profession and actions.

Thus, we are studying the two points on two different grounds. There should be no confusion about this. There is a difference between one's motivation and one's profession/actions.



hi larxene,

thanks. you are partially right! i read it, but i was approaching it in my own way and wasn't trying to fit it into the context you've defined here. here are my thoughts on your hypothesis.

i think it is very difficult to define internal motivation. i am thinking of something jb morin said about houses - the 2 houses opposite one another share something in common. we can't take the m.c. without the other end of the axis. same for the nonagesimal. i think if we keep this in mind, the most subjective place in the chart (subjectivity/objectivity are words some use to define the lower or upper hemisphere generally) would probably form an important consideration in any attempt on my part to understand internal motivation. but i think it is much more difficult then a simple connection to the i.c./m.c. or 4th/10th eq house cusp. for me personally the moon plays an important role as does the sun and ascendant in all of this. i have great difficulty separating these astro ingredients to get to having only the mc defining internal motivation..

perhaps you can shed some light on the basis for your suggesting this hypothesis. i understand the distinction you are making as those are valid distinctions like the example you gave on the high school ed. and different individuals involvement in that. i just can't make the jump to thinking internal motivation is caught via the mc axis only. thanks.

of course, i can always rationalize something a particular way, but this is more along the lines of confirmation bias which i try not to consciously participate in. i may do it unconsciously when i am not aware of it, but the hindsight astrology approach has these types of built in limitations that astrologers in particular need to be constantly aware of when examining charts of well known people.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:59 pm    Post subject: Nikola Tesla's chart Reply with quote

Hi James, re: yours Wed May 07, 2014 7:08 am

Quote:
first off is the idea of his ancestry being orthodox priests on both sides with his father having in mind that he would follow in their footsteps. this would definitely be supported by the close position of sun in cancer on the i.c., and more generally the other planets in cancer in the vicinity of the i.c along with the m.c. axis being in cap/cancer. it would also support a career in line with his family as saturn the ruler of the m.c. is also in cancer and in close proximity to the m.c. axis too - if the time is not too far off..


Even though the IC falling into another house than 4th would suggest deviation from family tradition, its position in Cancer with all the other planets there indicates that it was no easy task for Nikola to break free from his parent's expectations.

In fact, it was only when Nikola was ill with cholera and on the verge of death that his desperate father promised him that, if he would recover, he could choose the career he wished.

Quote:
that he went in a more individualistic area (hey it's the uranus ruler of aries? conversation again almost, lol) would be implied by the 10th house sign aquarius..


Hmm... This would imply that the MC is showing the profession, and the Nonagesimal the vocation, contrary to my working hypothesis as demonstrated in my own delineation. How dare you?!! Laughing Laughing

But this makes it clear that, ultimately, it could be difficult to reach a consensus here, because different people may see a given personality's traits reflected in the chart in different ways.

Personally, it makes a lot of sense to me to think of the MC – the highest point a celestial body (most obviously, the Sun) will reach on a given day – as signifying the goal of an individual's development which will act on the individual's motivation as a causa finalis.

But your interpretation is intriguing too, no doubt.

Quote:
from my own read on the chart, the outer planets pluto and uranus rising in the ascendant would also suggest a more individualistic path here too which could be more of the cause for throwing off the path his parents had in mind for him, while going in a more innovative trailblazing direction.


Interesting observation – also considering the aspects these planets are casting.

Quote:
i note jupiter in sag in the 12th in aries overcomes the cancerian planets too.


Right, Jupiter casts a sinister square to them. In this context, I notice, additionally, that Mars (dispositor of Jupiter) and the Moon (dispositor of the planets in Cancer) are in conjunction with each other.

Quote:
i think jupiter is a key planet to this chart in a roundabout way and seems to latch onto some of the roles he is known for in life. i suppose this could have also suggested a career in the priesthood too, especially as it lands in the 12th house, but also i think the rising planets pluto or uranus or both are strong directives that push him away from a more traditional or conservative career path towards one which sounds more like a vocation that he was able to parley into a livelihood.


Probably, a traditional(ly minded) astrologer wouldn't consider Jupiter to be very prominent in this chart, but your assessment makes a lot of sense to me.

Again, that Jupiter's dispositor is conjunct the Moon ruling the stellium in Cancer would seem to play a role here, besides Jupiter's aspects to all the latter.

Quote:
the quintile between pluto and sun is interesting here too, as this suggests some obvious talent that isn't immediately seen using only the traditional aspect set - wouldn't be picked up to my knowledge by traditional astrology, but i say this partly to stir some of the complacent traditional specialists into making a comment or 2 on this chart, LOL! ( not that i have been known to engage ya'll before!)


I generally don't consider quintiles in a chart, either, but this is not to say that I look at them (or other “non-traditional” aspects) as meaningless. Your presentation of Nikola's fifth harmonic underlines this.

Further observations regarding Nikola's motivation and occupation by others would be welcome, needless to say.

Thank you, James, for your very intuitive and substantial analysis of Tesla, and the dynamics that allowed him to become the extraordinary individual he was!

Cheers
Michael


Last edited by Michael Sternbach on Tue May 20, 2014 6:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Larxene



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Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@James:

Now I understand what you are trying to say. You were delineating profession in your previous post, which confused me.

Yes, it is likely that there are other factors that will show our internal motivations, and we may have more than one motivation. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, for example, attempts to illustrate the various needs a human has by placing them on several levels.

What Michael is probably asking, is whether the MC suggests the internal motivation for carrying out one's profession or actions. Maybe there are other factors that can show such motivations as well, but for the moment, we are trying to find out about what the MC/IC tells us.


Feel free to pursue the problem from another perspective. After all, it seems that nobody else is interested in studying the charts...
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Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Nikola Tesla's chart Reply with quote

Hi Larxene, re: yours Wed May 07, 2014 7:10 am

First of all, I observe that your method is based on traditional astrology and quite analytical, while James is using more of a modern synthesizing approach.

Both of you are deducing meaningful results, however.

Quote:
The Nonagesim lies in Aquarius, the sign of Saturn. However, Saturn is not configured to the sign, so he cannot manage the sign totally. Therefore, there will be a vice-manager; this is Mercury, who is the night trigon lord, for he is configured to Aquarius by trine from Gemini. Mercury gets +1 as significator of actions and profession.

In the style of Ptolemy, there are no planets in the culminating sign (not sure whether 9th or 10th should be used here). I think Venus is not making a phase, considering her average motion per day (I am too lazy to cast a chart to confirm this). Mercury may be making a phase, but his speed varies more greatly so I am not sure.

Mercury is succeedent by sign and cadent by quadrant, while Venus is cadent by sign and also cadent but goaded by quadrant. Mercury aspects the 10th sign, while Venus aspects the MC. What decides it for me is that Mercury is visible while Venus is under the rays, as well as the fact that Mercury is in Gemini.

So significator of actions and profession is Mercury, with a slight Venusian influence. Indeed, we can see this in Nikola. Nikola designed physical mechanisms to produce results that are novel at that time. His strong imagination also attests to the Venusian influence.


So the foremost significator of profession in this case is Mercury (which is, I note, trine the Nonagesimal indicating Nikola's profession by sign). Mercury certainly fits this man's great mental capacities. But Venus (casting an aspect to the MC) would play a role here, too - as reflected in Nikola's strong imagination.

All this makes a lot of sense: Nikola actually didn't arrive at his pioneering inventions by strenuous rumination and endless experimentation. Rather, he would let a question sink into his subconscious mind and “incubate” it there, sometimes for weeks or month. Only occasionally would he consciously think of the matter again. After a while, he would have the complete device in front of his mind's eye. He could run it in his imagination and tell if it would function as desired, or if some adaptations were required. Only then did he actually build it, to see it working exactly like he had imagined!

Quote:
MC is in the 9th house in Capricorn. Nikola's internal motivation is likely to make as many of his ideas into reality as possible. For that, he spent minimal time socialising and had little friends, avoided marriage or sexual partnership, moved from place to place to obtain mentorship and work related to his field, and spent only 2 hours per night sleeping (which is way below the average amount of sleep).


Quote:
In my opinion, his motivation to convert ideas into reality is based on the desire for knowledge; he wanted to know what is possible in the world, and what is not. This is a 9th house theme.


You are applying our working hypothesis here that the MC is showing somebody's internal motivation.

If I'm reading you right, the ruler of the MC Saturn would have been the means to convert his ideas to physical reality. Plus he signifies Nikola's ascetic life-style in order to do so.

Quote:
Actually, many of these behaviours are Saturnine in nature; in particular, the limiting and restricting of socio-sexual interactions and sleeping hours. This is significant because the Nonagesim and MC are both in Saturn's signs.

Interesting to note is that Saturn is contrary to sect, in detriment and cadent, yet rather than being sluggish, inert and unproductive, Nikola was prolific beyond the average person. Probably this is because Saturn is in the fruitful sign of Cancer, and Venus, significator of mind and body is also in the same sign. This supports one of my hypotheses about malefic planets. (However, the maleficence eventually emerged; he sometimes had no financial support for his ideas, and later he lived a poor man's life.)


This is notable indeed! It's easy to see that Saturn was a major influence in Nikola's life, notwithstanding the planet's apparently weak position.

Quote:
Michael, I can't do integral calculus in my head.


Shocked

Quote:
I'm just an average person Smile.


Not that average, I would maintain, nevertheless.

Quote:
Personally I admire this guy, as I dream of doing similar things with regards to limiting socio-sexual interactions and minimising my sleeping hours (I've tried polyphasic, tri-phasic and bi-phasic sleep before, but I lost momentum and there are complications with meal hours and amount of calories needed).


Especially in regard to limiting socio-sexual interactions, I would ask you to be quite careful, though. Maybe it's the right way for you to go, who is to say? But I have observed a number of people neglecting their natural sexual and/or social instincts in order to attain some envisioned lofty goal, and they all ended up psychologically quite damaged, in my opinion. For that matter, Tesla himself was sometimes seen exhibiting neurotic behaviour, if the reports are to be believed.

Thanks for this insightful and revealing delineation of Nikola Tesla's chart! Thumbs up

Cheers
Michael
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Larxene



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Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Nikola Tesla's chart Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

...But Venus (casting an aspect to the MC) would play a role here, too - as reflected in Nikola's strong imagination...


I think combustion weakens a planet's active influence, but intensifies its natural qualities. For example, I have a combust, non-phasis Saturn, but I am very, very Saturnine mentally (Saturn with Mercury). Nikola is the same; his Venus is combust yet his imagination is extraordinary. Venus is both significator of creativity and novelty and ruler of the Ascendant.



Michael Sternbach wrote:

You are applying our working hypothesis here that the MC is showing somebody's internal motivation.

If I'm reading you right, the ruler of the MC Saturn would have been the means to convert his ideas to physical reality. Plus he signifies Nikola's ascetic life-style in order to do so.


Well, what's the point of having a hypothesis if we do not work on it? I am just staying on topic. Smile



Michael Sternbach wrote:

Especially in regard to limiting socio-sexual interactions, I would ask you to be quite careful, though. Maybe it's the right way for you to go, who is to say? But I have observed a number of people neglecting their natural sexual and/or social instincts in order to attain some envisioned lofty goal, and they all ended up psychologically quite damaged, in my opinion.


“Man cannot gain anything without first sacrificing something else. To obtain anything, something of equal value must be lost. That is the Law of Equivalent Exchange.”

Smile Besides, I have a method of minimising neuroticism. I call it, "The Emptying of the Soul", an ascetic practice.
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Nikola Tesla's chart Reply with quote

Larxene,

In light of what you have said about the roles of Mercury and Venus in Tesla's chart, I find it quite remarkable that two 1st magnitude fixed stars with the nature of just these two planets are in prominent positions:

1) Spica in conjunction with the Moon (ruler of the stellium in Cancer) and Mars (ruler of Jupiter in Aries whose importance James has explained). - Alright, the Moon is a little out of the 7°30' orb Robson and Wilson allow for 1st magnitude stars, but I think it's permissible to see Moon/Mars as a unit in this regard.

2) Vega in conjunction with the MC. Here it's noteworthy that Vega is associated with music, and while Tesla was not a musician, his most famous invention, the Tesla coil, is totally based on vibrations and frequencies; it can even be used as a music instrument!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgll-XTqcS4
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote: Thu May 08, 2014 5:48 pm
Quote:
perhaps we need to be considering predictive data to the 2 different degree points to see which has greater bearing. as i see it we are really looking at the ascendant degree verses the mc degree and trying to figure out which one has greater bearing. i personally maintain that the ascendant degree is of greater importance and significance, thus an emphasis on the nonagesimal makes sense to me. i still see the m.c. as an important and sensitive degree in the big picture. i am just not sure how to make a distinction here when they are both in the same sign, other then thru aspects to either point, which takes me back to the importance of the ascendant degree.


Hi James,

Yeah, using transits and directions would be another approach to try to determine the meaning of the MC verses the Nonagesimal.

As long as we're using only natal charts, it will obviously be almost impossible to distinguish between the meaning of the MC and the Nonagesimal if the former is in 10th. Unless we could do this based on natal planetary aspects to the two, or they would happen to fall into two different signs.

James wrote: Fri May 09, 2014 8:28 pm
Quote:
i think it is very difficult to define internal motivation. i am thinking of something jb morin said about houses - the 2 houses opposite one another share something in common. we can't take the m.c. without the other end of the axis. same for the nonagesimal. i think if we keep this in mind, the most subjective place in the chart (subjectivity/objectivity are words some use to define the lower or upper hemisphere generally) would probably form an important consideration in any attempt on my part to understand internal motivation. but i think it is much more difficult then a simple connection to the i.c./m.c. or 4th/10th eq house cusp. for me personally the moon plays an important role as does the sun and ascendant in all of this. i have great difficulty separating these astro ingredients to get to having only the mc defining internal motivation..


Right, a number of factors contribute to somebody's motivation in life. Out of necessity, we are trying to isolate the MC as one of the main factors here, but I do see the difficulty, especially for someone like you who first of all sees a chart as a holistic pattern (much in the way Dane Rudhyar suggested, BTW). - Whereas Larxene with his more analytical approach finds this less to be a problem.

I fully agree with you that the IC/MC and/or 4th/10th axes have a lot to do with subjectivity/objectivity, and it would be interesting to investigate this further at the right moment.
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote: Sat May 10, 2014 4:00 am
Quote:
What Michael is probably asking, is whether the MC suggests the internal motivation for carrying out one's profession or actions. Maybe there are other factors that can show such motivations as well, but for the moment, we are trying to find out about what the MC/IC tells us.


While my main source on this topic of the MC in Equal, Bernd A. Mertz' Das Grundwissen der Astrologie, suggests that the MC in a house other than 10th indicates a discrepancy between one's profession and calling, it became quite obvious to me while studying charts in regard to this, that often (albeit not always) the latter will be seen expressed via the former.

Your examples in the same post illustrate this idea beautifully.

Furthermore, considering that the MC and the Nonagesimal are both commonly being used as 10th cusp (depending on the house system), it doesn't seem off the mark to assume that there is some kind of close resonance going on between the two.

Quote:
After all, it seems that nobody else is interested in studying the charts...


Not so! Personally, I just didn't find the time for doing this yet. By all means, let's look at your samples next!
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in reference to einsteins chart this hypothesis of larxene's is essentially a question of the role of aries(nonagesimal), verses pisces (m.c.) according to the signs only. we have planets in these 2 different signs as well..

we all have a 9th house and we all have a 10th house.. which one is more active and why? the logic astrologers seem to use is that when planets occupy a particular area of a chart, that area is more emphasized and describes themes that are more pronounced in a persons life. at least that is how i understand astrology at the moment.

i don't know that much about einstein - haven't read a bio or autobio on him and am generally not drawn to 'scientific' issues which is how i quickly think of him emphasizing.. i can see how he is exploring the mysteries of the universe and in this sense i can see how an emphasis on the 9th house with his sun and m.c. degree make sense. because i consider midpoints very relevant - (a blending of 2 astro energies) i am always cognizant of how this also colours my thinking. looking at important midpoints to the m.c. or nonagesimal would be one approach to stay focused on the topic/hypothesis.. in einsteins chart the nonagesimal is at the jupiter/pluto midpoint. for anyone familiar with midpoint theory, the jupiter/pluto has been defined by ebertin as a combo indicative of potentially great success.. it also highlights a certain power and ambition when it is more active in a chart.

let me read the description of from ebertin's book on midpoints for ju/pl=ascendant (nonagesimal is 90 the ascendant so applies to einsteins chart)."Prudence, far-sightedness, organizing talent, the desire for power.-Personal advancement."

ju/pl=midheaven(which is not the case here)."Ambition, assiduity and industriousness, the desire to succeed as manager. -Advantages in one's occupation, advancement and promotion, great luck." both quotes from COSI(combination of stellar influences) page 177.

in some obvious ways the ju/pl=m seems to apply more. if we were to change the m.c. for the nonagesimal it would also make sense but that is not how ebertin apparently thought of it.

i mostly think of it as the success axis.. jupiter transits to this midpoint are often indicative in my own life of reward and achievement. to a lesser extend the same applies when the sun,moon, venus or mars transits this midpoint as well.

back to the distinction between the m.c. and nonagesimal in einsteins chart. it seems to me that the water signs are more internally motivated anyway. i don't know that i can explain why i think this way. having sun and m.c. in pisces in the 9th area seems like a strong emphasis in the direction of exploring the universe in some particular manner that takes a person on a journey and process of discovery that can potentially sustain the person on an emotional level and offer some form of delight and happiness in the journey of enlightenment. it is the house of higher education, not necessarily formal, where a person expands their sense of self to go beyond the personal limitations or more personal matters, to reach out for something greater beyond the small self.

in einsteins case, i would suggest that larxene's hypothesis works here.
on the other hand, i am not sure the nonagesimal shows the profession and actions of einstein. it is true he was a trailblazer who made great discoveries, so perhaps i have it wrong and larxene's idea holds true here as well.

on another note and this is a separate conversational piece. ideas on saturn in the 10th seems to be mixed. i always tended to associate saturn in the 10th with more potential for success in a worldly context. reading more traditional literature has encouraged me to reconsider this subjective viewpoint and contemplate the opposite. i suppose the hellenistic idea of 'sect' would come into play here as saturn is not the malefic opposite sect, so would be considered to offer assistance in a person reaching the goals and ambitions they set out for themselves. this would be the case with einstein's chart. however, saturn in the sign aries is also a net negative according to planetary sign placement.. i have not been able to reconcile my thinking around this topic and einsteins chart provides an interesting case study on this topic. if anyone cares to offer some particular viewpoints on this, i would be appreciative. thanks.


Larxene wrote:
1. Hypothesis

Using the Equal House system,

1. ...does the house position of the MC show the internal motivation of the native?
(a) If so, is the native's internal motivation dependent on the topics of the house the MC is in?

2. ...does the Nonagesimal show the profession and actions of the native?


MC in 9th
1. http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Einstein,_Albert
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
“Man cannot gain anything without first sacrificing something else. To obtain anything, something of equal value must be lost. That is the Law of Equivalent Exchange.”


Possession of the Philosophers' Stone allows you to override the Law of Equivalent Exchange, however. Very Happy
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Larxene



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Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, James.

I think the part about Einstein "exploring the world" is right.


Essentially, one can say that the MC in the 9th suggests that Einstein's internal motivation was to discover the mechanical workings of the world. Another 9th house theme.

Again, I would like to caution the inherent subjectivity in my interpretation; we can't look inside Einstein to see exactly what he was thinking and feeling during the time he pursued his physical scientific studies. But we can venture an educated guess. So if there are several conflicting possibilities as to his (or anyone else's) internal motivations, we should consider all the possibilities, by weighing the physical evidence.

The nonagesimal is probably not as insightful here, as Saturn and Mercury are not in the nonagesimal. However, if one is to take the nonagesimal as pointing towards the whole sign that one needs to consider to arrive at the person's profession and actions, then it would be insightful.

Indeed, Saturn and Mercury are in the 10th sign, and this is the major combination that talks about his academic pursuits. The ancients say that such a combination makes the person a deep learner who is well learned in many fields. Mercury is applying to Saturn and they are about 1 degree apart. Besides that, it seems that Mercury is heliacally rising, while Saturn is heliacally setting, conferring even more strength to both of these planets.

Einstein's main job for a livelihood was doing clerical work. Saturn gives the ability to deal with limits and structure (clerical work mostly deals with forms, procedures and record keeping in my opinion; routine-like tasks). Intriguingly, he works in a patent office. Patents are created to exclude other people from making, using or selling an invention [https://www.google.com.my/search?q=define+patent]. This is a Saturnian concept (Saturn significations: limits, boundaries, restrictions, denying. Schmidt: to exclude and reject).





I will analyse the charts when I feel like it. Contrary to the hard-worker quality that Saturn would confer, I am also strongly influenced by Venus (Taurus ASC and other things). Using the Oikodespotes/Overseer/Kurios naval technique that Schmidt expounded on, I am indeed a Saturn/Venus kind of person. This makes me hard-working ONLY WHEN it is something I find interesting and fun. I can't work hard at everything.

So despite the fact that I systematically laid out the Hypotheses and Sample, I don't really like working on them in the order I've arranged. Spontaneity and novelty is necessary (Venusian influences).


On that note, here are some interesting but derailed thoughts.

I find Einstein's chart interesting because it is similar to my life in several aspects. First is his deformed body. I have a large forehead that I am not fond of and I conceal it with an emo hairstyle. I can also relate to his slower cognitive development, as I have had speech problems until now (I babble), though I've improved myself throughout the years by slowly and deliberately choosing my words. I am also a slow thinker.

Then there's that Saturn/Mercury combination which I also have, and in the same house as well, though the zodiacal sign is different. His rebellious past echoes mine; I rebelled against school, but I was not kicked out because my behaviour wasn't as overt (also because I was in a position of power and my grades were well above the average then).

Okay, enough babbling. Now some other observations about the chart. Mercury and Venus are together in the 10th (though they are not close) shows that Einstein had musical inclinations; indeed we have testimonies of him playing the violin and piano. Consequently, Venus and Saturn are also together. We can see that Einstein wasn't very fortunate in marriage. His first marriage ended in divorce, his second marriage was with a widow (widow is also a signification of Saturn), who later died before him.


James, I think that Saturn does make one more concerned with worldly issues, while Jupiter is the opposite. However, I think that Saturn makes a person more bent towards the theoretical rather than the practical (Mercury would be the opposite here, more or less). So Saturn is not absolutely worldly in that sense.

We can see this in Einstein. Einstein was concerned with physics (a worldly "science", in the old concept of the word), but instead of creating inventions incessantly like Tesla, he wrote theoretical concepts on paper and delivered these concepts as ideas rather than as physical things.



Michael, well...so far no one has gotten close to finding it. Smile
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james_m



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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the additional thoughts here larxene and michael. i will try to offer some thoughts on the weekend when i have a bit more free time. cheers james
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Michael Sternbach
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been suggested by this author that the Nongesimal is signifying an individual's profession whereas the MC is expressing their internal motivation. However, by looking at a native's biographic data, the latter is often quite intangible while the former is known. Therefore, in looking at the sample charts Larxene provided us with, I decided to solely concentrate on the question, if the Nonagesimal or the MC would be more indicative of the native's profession, according to their sign positions.

Now, astrology is not rocket science (despite both having to do with outer space), and if you see something differently, feel free to express so.

In the following, I will print bold the one or, sometimes, both factors that could be seen as expressive of the profession. Then I will cite the latter the way it is indicated. I.e., Aries and Leo are often simply telling us that a personality has a leading position in their field.


MC in 10th

1. Pope Benedict XVI: N Sag, MC Sag (cleric)
2. Pope Francis I: N Ari (religious leader), MC Tau
3. Pope Pius XII: N Leo, MC Leo (religious leader)
4. Jean-Paul Sartre: N Vir (academic, atheistic philosopher), MC Libra
5. Simone de Beauvoir: N Vir, MC Vir (academic, atheistic philosopher)
6. Nat “King” Cole: N Lib (musician), MC Sco
7. Adolf Hitler: N Can, MC Leo (political leader)
8. Ed Steinbrecher: N Vir, MC Vir (teacher)
9. Dennis Luciani: N Lib (actor), MC Sco
10. Jonas Salk: N Leo, MC Leo (bacteriologist; no obvious relation here)
11. Orlando Bloom: N Sco, MC Sag (actor; no obvious relation)
12. Bertrand Russel: N Leo, MC Leo (leader in philosophy)


MC in 9th

13. Albert Einstein: N Ari (scientific leader), MC Pis
14. Robert Schmidt: N Tau, MC Tau (researcher of tradition in astrology)
15. Steven Spielberg: N Ari (leader in movie-making), MC Pis (movie-maker)
16. Christophorus Buys Ballot: N Ari, MC Ari (president of IMC)
17. Paul Gauguin: N Tau, MC Tau (stockbroker, sculptor, painter)
18. Agatha Christie: N Gem (writer), MC Tau
19. Cherie Blair: N Tau, MC Ari (lawyer; no obvious relation)
20. Alain Hadès: N Aqu (astrologer), MC Cap
21. Bill Gates: N Ari, MC Ari (leader in IT)
22. Donald Trump: N Tau, MC Tau (property developer)


MC in 8th

23. Arthur Conan Doyle: N Pis (writer of historical romances), MC Aqu
24. Arthur Schopenhauer: N Ari (leader in philosophy), MC Aqu
25. Tony Blair: N Pis, MC Cap (politician)
26. Alexander Fleming: N Ari (surgeon, army doctor), [/b]MC Pisc[/b] (bacteriologist)
27. Grand Duchess Anastasia: N Ari (leading personality of state), MC Pis
28. Czarina of Russia Alexandra: N Pis, MC Aqu (royalty; no obvious relation)
29. Queen of England Victoria: N Pis, MC Aqu (royalty; no obvious relation)
30. Emmanuel Lasker: N Pis, MC Aqu (mathematician)
31. Renny Harlin: N Ari, MC Aqu (movie-maker; no obvious relation)
32. Kim Campbell: N Pis, MC Aqu (politician; no obvious relation)


MC in 11th

33. Christian Huygens: N Lib, MC Sco (researcher)
34. Marie Curie: N Lib, MC Sco (researcher)
35. Crown Prince of Denmark Frederic: N Lib (representative of state), MC Sag
36. Olof Palme: N Vir (attorney), MC Sco
37. King of Norway Olav V: N Vir, MC Lib (representative of state)
38. Victoria Lagerström: N Lib (Swedish beauty queen, singer), MC Sag
39. Maureen Lipman: N Vir, MC Sco (comedy actress; no obvious relation, but Lib – occupying most of 10th – is attributed to acting)
40. Bob Hunter: N Vir (environmental activist), MC Sco
41. Prince Edward: N Vir (representative of state), MC Sco
42. Harri Holkeri: N Vir, MC Lib (diplomat)
43. Nils Mustelin: N Vir (physicist, astronomer, sceptic), MC Lib
44. King of Sweden Gustavus Adolphus: N Vir, MC Lib (representative of state)


Analysis

Of the 44 samples, 11 have the Nonagesimal and the MC in the same sign, so they can't help us to decide which of the two is more indicative of the profession (#1, 3, 5, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 21, 22).

Among the remaining 33 charts, there are 7 in which neither the Nonagesimal nor the MC seem to be describing the profession (at least as far as I can see), so I discount these as well (#11, 19, 28, 29, 31, 32, 39).

In #15 the two factors describe two sides of the same profession, in #26 two different consecutive professions the native was practising.

In the 24 charts of the “either/or” type left (#2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 13, 18, 20, 23, 24, 25, 27, 30, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44) the Nonagesimal, and the MC, respectively, are indicating the profession as follows:

Nonagesimal = 16 (#2, 4, 6, 9, 13, 18, 20, 23, 24, 27, 35, 36, 38, 40, 41, 43)
MC = 8 (#7, 25, 30, 33, 34, 37, 42, 44)

Best,
Michael
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312

Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, so you've given up on investigating internal motivations? Smile

So now the scope has been narrowed down. Ironically, your current question relates to one of the first questions you asked in the other post: that is, why is the MC axis used instead of the nonagesimal.


I'll analyse the chart when I feel like it.
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