10th Equal house cusp verses MC

Larxene

46 by Larxene

Note that the selection method is not random; I searched for people I know, sometimes selecting people I find interesting, and later I also searched in places where the MC is more likely to be found in the 11th or 8th.

The third issue is information. Sometimes I find a chart that fits the conditions (accurate and MC in the right place) but there is little information on the native. I have had to eliminate quite a few charts like these. There are still about three such charts in the 'MC in 11th' category.

Finally, there are some charts which are labelled AA despite the fact that the source says the person is born between hour X and hour X+1. That's a one hour range! I rejected about 5 of these charts, but included one of them in 'MC in 11th' due to lack of charts.

I think that's all. I'll analyse the charts later. Michael, please check whether that is hypothesis we wish to investigate.

Interested in Hellenistic astrology? Visit my blog.

The appearance changes, but the essence remains.

Michael Sternbach

47 by Michael Sternbach

Larxene wrote:

Michael, please check whether that is hypothesis we wish to investigate.

Yes, Larxene, let's start with that as our working hypothesis.

You have formulated it well, in a really methodological manner.

And I applaud you for the effort you made gathering all these examples!

1. ...does the house position of the MC show the internal motivation of the native?

Right, that's the first part of the question.

For clarity of terms, I would define the internal motivation as that which moves us forwards, that which we are internally pursuing. Whether we are (already) conscious of it or not.

Michael Sternbach

48 by Michael Sternbach

Paul, re: yours Wed May 07, 2014 9:37 am

Thanks Paul

Great information!

Looking forward to more when you have time.

Cheers
Michael

james_m

49 by james_m

Paul wrote: In what limb he suffers (p191)
For the Ascendant designates the head; by the second is denoted the neck; the hands and shoulders are designated the third...

it appears this concept of connecting houses and signs (1st house has a parallel with the 1st sign and etc. etc.) has been going on for longer then 'modern' astrology and has it's origins further back then some want to acknowledge.. deb?

larxene - thanks for your posts. i thought it was interesting what you said about saturn in teslas chart. one comment that could be added is the strength of saturn by planetary phase is more pronounced. of course an astrologer has to weigh this will all the other considerations. on every other level saturn is weak by standard analysis. it is only when one considers outer planets that the closest aspect in the chart which is between saturn and pluto show the possibility of a more modern concept - close astrological aspects - as possibly having some bearing on why he was able to accomplish as much as he did. there a few close midpoints to saturn here as well hard aspects to midpoints which is something cosmobiologists also consider..

50 by Paul

james_m wrote: it appears this concept of connecting houses and signs (1st house has a parallel with the 1st sign and etc. etc.) has been going on for longer then 'modern' astrology and has it's origins further back then some want to acknowledge.. deb?

I think it's worth being clear on this. I can't remember what Deb's book says, but most people acknowledge that there is an historical link between signs and houses when it comes to the idea of 'body parts'. I will show later that there's a precedent for this with ships (ie, it's not unique to medicine).

The thing that people disagree with, which is indeed modern, is the astrological alphabet, which posits that Sign=House=Planet. So for example Libra=7th House=Venus and vice versa. That the second house signifies money, and therefore so does Venus and Taurus. That Pisces is spiritual etc. and therefore so too is the 12th house. That planets in the 4th show how emotional and caring you are (Cancer).

But we quickly see problems when we try to associate Saturn with recognition and career (10th House) or with Venus and lawsuits and enemies (7th house) etc.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

james_m

51 by james_m

thanks paul,

i think the main criticism of the idea of equating signs with houses and planets too is how it turns everything into mashed potatoes on a plate, as opposed to delicate little potatoes each with a specific, quantifiable taste, lol.. i like my mashed potatoes with gravy, lol.. where can i read about that in the astrology cook books?

52 by Paul

james_m wrote:thanks paul,

i think the main criticism of the idea of equating signs with houses and planets too is how it turns everything into mashed potatoes on a plate, as opposed to delicate little potatoes each with a specific, quantifiable taste, lol.. i like my mashed potatoes with gravy, lol.. where can i read about that in the astrology cook books?

I like to mash my own potatoes I guess.

Also, you talk to an Irish man of potatoes, you know you are going to both make me not only hungry but also make follow your posts with a new found respect and attention hitherto unseen.

But I agree, one of the things I notice with people who learn astrology is not understanding the difference between the signs and houses and whilst I do recommend this astrological alphabet as a nice quick mnemonic for getting the idea in place, I also think that as soon as we become fluent with the terms we drop the idea completely so we can add more nuance. But until we are at a level where we understand the planets and the signs and the houses on their own merit, these simple ABCs can be helpful to beginners. I presume that is why they came about in the first place, when astrology needed to be taught to the mass public.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

Michael Sternbach

53 by Michael Sternbach

Paul, re: yours Wed May 07, 2014 5:08 pm

The way I look at it, the zodiac, the wheel of houses, and the planets are three different and differentiable levels. They should be taught as such, even though it is inevitable (and not always inappropriate, either) that, in modern astrological practice, they sometimes tend to blur.

Whether or not this was the reason for more traditionally minded astrologers to reject seeing the signs and the houses as analogous, I cannot decide. But I do think that this question is an extremely important one regarding astrology's philosophical foundations.

In this respect, it makes a lot of sense to me to think of astrology's three wheels (including the planets) as expressing the same archetypes, albeit in different ways. Plus, there are just too many very obvious parallels between signs and houses, even by their traditional descriptions, as James started demonstrating.

If we are talking about traditional sources, what is further supporting such a view with little ambiguity is the precise assignment of the same body part to a sign as well as to a house also by an astrologer like Al-Kindi (as we all know now).

You really don't need to be a great logician in order to see:

If body parts = signs, and body parts = houses, then signs = houses.
QED

Mark wrote:

That was a specific tradition relating exclusively to medical astrology. Nothing else.

Except, it directly pertains to the BIGGIE how we are "supposed" to look at the basic foundations of astrology in the first place.

That the attributions of body parts to signs and their analogous houses holds true empirically seems evident from the published experiences of many an astromedical practitioner. I may mention my six years of working in close association with a medical doctor as another reference here.

But who is to argue with Al Kindi anyway...

Michael

54 by Deb

james_m wrote:
Paul wrote: In what limb he suffers (p191)
For the Ascendant designates the head; by the second is denoted the neck; the hands and shoulders are designated the third...

it appears this concept of connecting houses and signs (1st house has a parallel with the 1st sign and etc. etc.) has been going on for longer then 'modern' astrology and has it's origins further back then some want to acknowledge.. deb?

I'm not really able to follow this or other forum discussions at the moment - too much illness in my household and other pressing issues on my mind. If you are interested I covered this point in my book, showing how it was an ancient attribution, and explaining (for example in my introduction) why it shouldn't be over-relied upon to suggest that the main historical attributions of the houses are derived from the signs. I would not discount anything as having to been able to lend its influence to house meanings, but of course, for the ancient anatomical associations it is quite possible that it was house meanings extended into signs, rather than vice versa - the attribution of parts of a ship is following the same principle of anatomical association. I'm not sure why it is being treated as some kind of new and startling realization that has not been previously acknowledged, but once I have published my own arguments, I think I should let others use them or disagree with them as they see fit.

55 by Paul

Deb wrote:If you are interested I covered this point in my book, showing how it was an ancient attribution, and explaining (for example in my introduction) why it shouldn't be over-relied upon to suggest that the main historical attributions of the houses are derived from the signs. I would not discount anything as having to been able to lend its influence to house meanings, but of course, for the ancient anatomical associations it is quite possible that it was house meanings extended into signs, rather than vice versa - the attribution of parts of a ship is following the same principle of anatomical association. I'm not sure why it is being treated as some kind of new and startling realization that has not been previously acknowledged, but once I have published my own arguments, I think I should let others use them or disagree with them as they see fit.

I really need to re-read your book. It was one of the first books I read which offered a new spin on the houses (previously having thought Howard Sasportas' book on the houses was the most important). I seem to have forgotten much more than I have remembered.

Thanks for this post.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

Saturngirl

56 by Saturngirl

I have recently purchased Deb's presentation on the development of house meanings from the AA website & it is excellent!
Highly recommended!

Judy

Enjoy what you learn,as it keeps the mind youthful!!

Michael Sternbach

57 by Michael Sternbach

Hi Deb

Deb wrote:

I would not discount anything as having to been able to lend its influence to house meanings, but of course, for the ancient anatomical associations it is quite possible that it was house meanings extended into signs, rather than vice versa - the attribution of parts of a ship is following the same principle of anatomical association.

I'm not sure why it would be essential if the sign meanings were extended to the houses, or rather vice versa? Wouldn't the result be quite the same in either case?

However, historically speaking, the question is interesting.

I'm not sure why it is being treated as some kind of new and startling realization that has not been previously acknowledged

I'm rather under the impression that contemporary traditional astrologers treat it as some kind of new and startling realization that the houses would not reflect the signs.

Best wishes
Michael

10th Equal house cusp verses MC

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