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10th Equal house cusp verses MC
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Larxene



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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael and others,

To make more certain the differences, can you venture a guess on what a person's calling would be when the MC is in the different houses?

1. 10th house
2. 9th house
3. 11th house
4. 12th house
5. 8th house
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Mark
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Michael and others,

To make more certain the differences, can you venture a guess on what a person's calling would be when the MC is in the different houses?

1. 10th house
2. 9th house
3. 11th house
4. 12th house
5. 8th house


Here is a very interesting article on the MC-IC axis by the English astrologer Claire Martin. Its taken from her series Mapping the Psyche Vol II: The Planetary Aspects and the Houses of the Horoscope.

Claire delineates MC-IC in Equal houses and offers suggestions on how the meaning of the MC and IC varies from house meanings.

http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtpt410_e.htm

Mark
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mark:

Claire's article is really interesting. Thanks for sharing, Mark.

I particularly find Claire's observation remarkable that the falling of the MC/IC axis into houses other than IV/X indicates the native's deviation from the path exemplified by their parents.

I would like to supplement this hypothesis with the assumption that the IC also represents one's subconscious mind, in the sense of one's most basic subjective assumptions about "Life, the Universe, and Everything", which are mostly (if not exactly unalterably) forged in one's earlier childhood.

This will - to a degree - be synonymous with your psychological “comfort zone” which may indeed vary from your parents' which no doubt leads to many misunderstandings between the two generations.

So I guess, astrologers treating cases of relationship problems between parents and their children should especially notice this.

The IC's affinity with the 4th house and (arguably) with the Moon further suggests its relevance to matters of (early) childhood experience and subconscious programming.

@Larxene:

Sorry, I am a little busy just now, but I will work out a brief list of suggested meanings for the MC and IC in various houses for you and everyone else interested soon.

Cheers


Last edited by Michael Sternbach on Sun May 04, 2014 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Larxene



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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Mark.

That article covered everything except for the 12th/6th combination.

For the 11th/5th combination, Clare suggested political, social and creative kinds of vocation. While I understand the creative part as being derived from the 5th house of pleasure and delight, I am still wondering about the political and social parts. My studies of traditional astrology gave me the impression that politics and society would be associated with the 10th (and perhaps 4th for the society part), not the 11th. Is this a modern extrapolation, or are there traditional texts suggesting this?

For those who have the MC/IC combination in the 10th/4th, Clare implied that one's vocation is an extension of the professions of our family or parents (or simply, based on our roots; like how the Chinese are generally good in arithmetics, which leads many Chinese people into the accounting/business/mathematics professions). Perhaps the vocation of these people conform with their family's expectations as well.

It was also implied that for combinations other than the 10th/4th, the vocation of the native is NOT an extension of his family's, and may not conform to his family's expectations.

Still...if we want to investigate matters from this perspective, we need to study the family's professions and expectations, and this can get needlessly complex. I propose instead that those who have MC in the 10th would be called to vocations where they can gain a livelihood, advance in their fields and be promoted financially, and to be elevated socially.

For those who have MC in the 9th,

Quote:
...for example, the MC/IC axis falls across the 9th/3rd houses, then our vocation may involve education, teaching, law, philosophy, travel, or any of the themes associated with these two houses. We might be the one person in the family, for example, who has gone to university, or who lives in another country or culture, or who adopts a different religion or philosophy from the rest of the family.


Why is law associated with the 9th?

Her suggestion for MC in the 8th is not very helpful, in my opinion, although there may be some merit in the part about investigating issues buried from society. I still think MC in 8th calls the person to deal with death more than buried issues, however. And if we want to talk about buried issues, the 4th also talks about these.



Michael, before we attempt to investigate more charts, it is important to clarify what our hypothesis will be for MC in the different houses, so that we do not end up diverging in various directions like a two-bodied sign.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Michael, before we attempt to investigate more charts, it is important to clarify what our hypothesis will be for MC in the different houses, so that we do not end up diverging in various directions like a two-bodied sign.


I am afraid its highly unlikely we will reach a total consensus here. Modern astrology has some associations for the houses that contradict traditional ideas. Plus some of the more ancient ideas are slightly different from medieval astrology.

Mark
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
Michael, before we attempt to investigate more charts, it is important to clarify what our hypothesis will be for MC in the different houses, so that we do not end up diverging in various directions like a two-bodied sign.


Mark replied:
Quote:
I am afraid its highly unlikely we will reach a total consensus here. Modern astrology has some associations for the houses that contradict traditional ideas. Plus some of the more ancient ideas are slightly different from medieval astrology.


Right, Mark. But let's give it a try anyway. After all – “the way is the goal”!

Larxene wrote:
Quote:
That article covered everything except for the 12th/6th combination.


Mertz also doesn't say anything about 6th, and little about 12th.

See my own suggestions below.

Quote:
My studies of traditional astrology gave me the impression that politics and society would be associated with the 10th (and perhaps 4th for the society part), not the 11th. Is this a modern extrapolation, or are there traditional texts suggesting this?


I don't know if any traditional text makes this connection explicitly (then again, how do we define “traditional”?). It would seem to be derived from a view that regards houses and signs as analogous to each other, in this case 11th = Aquarius.

I would think that political inclinations signified by 10th may be more motivated by a personal search for power than those belonging to 11th where humanitarian ambitions would tend to prevail.

BTW, arguably, political significance could also be attributed to 9th where they would be (and this is what really seems to matter ) more in the context of idealistic missions.

So it's the individual motivation that makes the difference!

Seeing it this way might reduce the overlap of different houses with each other.

Bear in mind that not all societies have the same structure like ours. i.e., there are countries where the political structure coincides with the religious structure. - Food for thought.

Quote:
It was also implied that for combinations other than the 10th/4th, the vocation of the native is NOT an extension of his family's, and may not conform to his family's expectations.


This may often be the case, but I think we should be careful not oversimplify here.

Likewise, it has been said that the Nonagesimal's deviation from 10th indicates a divergence between occupation and vocation, but my own observations so far suggest that in fact the latter would often be expressed via the former, or exist in some kind of fusion with it.

Quote:
I propose instead that those who have MC in the 10th would be called to vocations where they can gain a livelihood, advance in their fields and be promoted financially, and to be elevated socially.


I am not sure how much money per se is an issue of 10th, but it is of course usually connected with an elevated social status and is also often a means of exercising power over society. Probably, there is some 2nd-10th trigon involved here. Question

Quote:
Why is law associated with the 9th?


Again, this would seem to be based on a view that associates 9th with Sagittarius and Jupiter.

Quote:
Her suggestion for MC in the 8th is not very helpful, in my opinion, although there may be some merit in the part about investigating issues buried from society. I still think MC in 8th calls the person to deal with death more than buried issues, however. And if we want to talk about buried issues, the 4th also talks about these.


It may be both (actually, aren't they quite close to each other, practically speaking?).

I would locate secrets in 8th as your mentioning of “Sherlock” earlier in this thread gives a good example for. Perhaps you would like to post the chart?

I will now proceed to write some suggestions for specific meanings on our virtual blackboard.


Keywords for the MC: Calling, vocation, devotion, motivation, interest, inclination

According to the MC's house position, these will be focussed in the following areas:

VIII: Transformational experiences, pertaining to death, sexuality, occultism, secrets in general

IX: Broadening of one's horizon, travelling, education, philosophy, idealism, religion, missions

X: Occupation, career, professional ambitions, social power and position

XI: Socialising, clubs, associations, lodges, political parties, teamwork, educational activity, humanitarianism

XII: Self-sacrificing activities, charity, spiritual seeking, hermitage, institutions such as homes, hospitals, jails, monasteries


Keywords for the IC: Childhood, subconscious mind, personal comfort zone, preconceived assumptions

II: Tradition, land, material security

III: Siblings, friends, neighbourhood, knowledge, libraries

IV: Home, homeland, parents, family, ancestors, inheritance, pets

V: Childhood, creativity, sexuality, pets

VI: Education, school, knowledge, social conditioning

This list is a bit synthesized from here and there. Bernd A. Mertz' suggestions, those of other astrologers, as well as my own conclusions are in it.

Feel free to exemplify, add to, or refute any of this, based on your personal outlooks.

Have fun. Smile

New chart example soon to follow as well...

Cheers
Michael
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james_m



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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10th equal house cusp, verses m.c.

i related to what paul said about the 10th house cusp.. any planet in this area overcomes the ascendant including any planet that might be in this same area.. the issue of 'overcoming' and what it means had a good thread on this here at skyscript for anyone interested in the topic. i think it helps to define the 10th as opposed to the m.c.

there is a lot of overlap of ideas and tools in use in astrology.. add to this 2 signs with the same ruler out of 10, or not if you use the outer planets and etc. etc. as helpful info on top of all this.. signs, aspects, house positions all collide or interact in some fashion, and we haven't even considered midpoints, or terms and all the rest of the hodge podge called astrology.

i read the claire martin article a few days ago.. i didn't think too much of the article, but i appreciate she tried to make distinctions and offer some ideas around this topic.

i have pluto/jupiter conjunction on the 10th house cusp, squared onto moon/saturn rising. this mostly comes out as having an issue with authority figures, especially female authority figures. that is the quick analysis of my chart on a psychological level highlighting this point. the sign is leo and i have been involved in public performance - music - for many years. i am also involved in teaching which has a direct link to jupiter( in the 9th using the other house options) or saturn rising depending on whether one thinks teaching is a jupiter or saturn thing. i tend to think it is both. depending on the house system one uses - sun and mercury(both in aries), the rulers of my 10th house cusp in leo, or m.c. in virgo are both in the 5th, or 6th house area - it is complicated due the question of house systems! so, the 5th house placements can connect to music performance and they are in a conjunction of 7 degrees with each other.

the more i talk about my own chart, the more muddled i feel about contributing much on this topic.

i think the 10th house cusp has more of connection to the personal due the square to the ascendant. the m.c. is different and less personal. i think the 10th and 4th house cusp has more of a connection to parents then the m.c./i.c. that is the first time i have said that publicly, but i think that is what i think.

i think the 10th house cusp represents some type of high point and some type of objective position, as opposed to the 4th which i view as more subjective. i think when people have the personal planets in the upper hemisphere and don't have them in the lower hemisphere, they are more oriented towards the 10th house cusp. i think it works the reverse too with a person having the personal planets in the lower hemisphere which is what it is in my case.

for someone with an upper hemisphere emphasis they might like to think they can be objective or are being objective while they may be ignoring there own subjectivity because they are not in touch with it. maybe this doesn't have much to do with the distinction between the 10th house equal cusp and the m.c, but i don't think we can isolate all these astrological factors. that is really my belief.

when i listen to music and it is an orchestra, or a number of people playing - all the elements converge into one whole. it is the same thing when we try to understand people. they are complex and it is not possible to separate all the parts or even understand how all the parts fit together.. we are constantly forced to weigh various factors, some more related then others - to form some type of picture of what it is we are looking at.. it is the same with listening to the orchestra..

my m.c. lands at the uranus/neptune midpoint to make personal matters more dream like. i have tried to understand the impersonal nature of these 2 planets in my attempt at understanding the m.c. in my chart. it seems i am more preoccupied with metaphysical matters if this was to say anything about me in some worldly sense. that certainly doesn't seem to connect in any obvious way to my work, but it does seem to connect to my life seeing it as some type of mystery or dream that i am left to interpret in some symbolic way. i can't say i have figured it out, but the nonagesimal is a lot more personally relevant to me and a point i can latch onto and find immediate meaning from. does it connect to my occupation - i think it does.. my occupation is my vocation as well.. it isn't some metaphysical inquiry either! well maybe a little bit, lol..

bottom line, i think the nonagesimal is more personal and more personally relevant, but i think the whole chart has to be considered to arrive at this point of view.. it will not be the same for others as everyone has a different chart.. this is in keeping with my subjective viewpoint on life and astrology which i think is also suggested by all the personal planets below the horizon, excepting the moon which is rising and also emphasizes a more subjective temperament.
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Larxene



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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do not need a consensus. We just need a clear scope to work within. We can change or modify our scope in subsequent trials, while still using the same sample of charts.



Michael, it seems that we are looking for two things here. First, we are searching for a person's internal motivations. Second, the kind or quality of profession that the person is attracted to as a result of his internal motivations.

In Samuel Hahnemann's case, his internal motivation might have been a desire to help people.

11th house for me refers to the social and financial support one receives from one's profession or actions. Specifically, it signifies our colleagues and subordinates, gifts from bosses and other benefactors one meets as a result of one's work, professional associations and organisations (like AFA for astrologers). IN A WORD, the theme is social support. (Yeah I know, I cheated.)

Plus, Samuel's 11th house lies in Libra, a human sign. If we follow Ptolemy's system, Libra is moist, so this accentuates the desire to work with people. Intriguingly, Libra is the sign of Venus, a moist planet and according to Schmidt, has the essence of reconciling and uniting; we can see elements of this in homeopathy, where "like cures like".

In summary, I would say that Sam-Sam's internal motivation is to provide support to people (11th house, human sign) so that they may live pleasant lives (sign of Venus).

The kind of profession, however, can be found via the 10th sign. Being Mercury's sign, Virgo signifies, among other things, physicians and doctors. We may also want to use Ptolemy's method of determining profession to further verify this. Of course, there are other techniques by other authors as well.
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternabach wrote:
Quote:
I don't know if any traditional text makes this connection explicitly (then again, how do we define “traditional”?). It would seem to be derived from a view that regards houses and signs as analogous to each other, in this case 11th = Aquarius.


I assume your aware your describing the modern 'alphabet zodiac' approach to the houses here. The original house meanings have no direct connection to the signs. However, William Lilly does suggest in his mundane horaries that parliament is covered by the 11th house. The idea is that the Kings' supporters were 2nd from the 10th. This idea seems to have been widely adopted by later astrologers.

However, this notion was challenged a few years ago here on the forum when the traditional astrologer Steven Birchfield suggested parliament could the 9th house. This was due to politicians role as legislators making and revising laws.

Mark
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Larxene



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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, I agree that the houses have more to do with parents than the MC/IC. Traditionally at least, there was no association of parents with the MC/IC that I am aware of.

Parents was firstly associated with the 4th house, then the 10th house was added to avoid ambiguity (because we have two parents; using one house to delineate two things can be confusing). Of course, we have the natural significators, the Sun and Moon, later extended to Saturn and Venus, as I understand it.

I think you may have a point there about objectivity/subjectivity being related to horizon. I have all planets (including outers) above the horizon except for one. That might explain our conflicting views.
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
I assume your aware your describing the modern 'alphabet zodiac' approach to the houses here. The original house meanings have no direct connection to the signs.


Yes, Mark, I know that older astrologers don't talk about the houses as akin to the signs.

Personally, I do see them as analogous, like many modern astrologers (i.e. Howard Sasportas, Stephen Arroyo). In my opinion, their traditional attributes are actually suggesting this quite clearly.

William Lilly (who you mention in your post in a different context) was the first to imply this connection more obviously by ascribing the body parts traditionally associated with the signs to the houses accordingly.

I guess, to treat this topic more fully we would need to dedicate a special thread to it...
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Quote:
Personally, I do see them as analogous, like many modern astrologers (i.e. Howard Sasportas, Stephen Arroyo). In my opinion, their traditional attributes are actually suggesting this quite clearly.


You really need to read our web host's book Michael!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/contents.html

Deborah Houlding specifically discusses the ideas of Howard Sasportas's on the houses and why his (and modern astrologers in general)approach is problematic both logically and historically.

Quote:
William Lilly (who you mention in your post in a different context) was the first to imply this connection more obviously by ascribing the body parts traditionally associated with the signs to the houses accordingly.


That was a specific tradition relating exclusively to medical astrology. Nothing else. It long predates Lilly. Many of the traditional meanings of houses have nothing in common with the signs and unless we choose to twist them to make them fit. A good example is Leo. Traditionally a sterile sign yet given the 5th house of children in the alphabet zodiac. Pisces and the 12th house is an awkward fit that ignores centuries of ideas about what that house symbolises.

I could go on and on but I think I have railroaded the thread enough on this!

Mark
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Michael Sternbach
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
You really need to read our web host's book Michael!


In fact, I have already put Deb's book on my "to read" list not long ago.

Quote:
That was a specific tradition relating exclusively to medical astrology. Nothing else. It long predates Lilly.


Seeing the houses as representing body parts predates Lilly?

Who mentions it before him?
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

larxene,

thanks for your comments. i always find them interesting, even if i don't properly understand them! the emphasis towards one end of an axis as opposed to the other is really a separate topic, but it connects in some roundabout way with the topic at hand. the idea of objectivity verses subjectivity and how it might connect to the 10th/4th house or m.c./i.c. is an open question that i don't have an answer for.

on a related note and connecting to your search for more info on what happens when the m.c. lands in a particular house, only a short time ago i read dykes book on choices and inceptions. one of the things i took away from this book is that when one wants to choose a time the general consensus from the book was to stay away from having the m.c. axis land in the 9th house and to try to make it land in the 10th or 11th house. i thought that was interesting as the conclusion seems to be that the intent is weakened when it lands in the cadent house. this does relate somewhat to this topic of discussion here too.. don't ask for specific page numbers as it was a detail that i picked up, but would be hard pressed to find the particular citations for.
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

Seeing the houses as representing body parts predates Lilly?

Who mentions it before him?


I was actually posting at the same time as Mark but then saw his post so didn't post the message I wrote up.

Maybe I should have, I offered a quote from Umar al Tabiri who links both and al Kindi who mentions the houses.

The crux of my post was that this is for other "body part" astrology such as parts of a ship as well. I can provide references, I'm just posting from my phone at the moment.
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