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Indicators of the "other person"

 
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:18 am    Post subject: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

Let me explain my dilemma. I ask a horary and look the significators of L1 and L7 - this is only pertaining to love horaries. Let's say I find an aspect between L1 and L7 applying (like Mercury and Jupiter), but as you can tell nowadays Venus is in Pisces, so if Virgo rises then Venus will be in the 7th.

Another thing I've seen happen is getting a Scorpio rising and finding Mercury in Taurus. If you turn the 5th house from the 7th (radix 11th) you will see Mercury rules this house.

I've always been confused about these two considerations. Other astrologers tell us to just look at what the planet of the 7th house is doing. So, in the first example if Jupiter is alone and aspecting no one except L1 then there's no one else involved (regardless of Venus in the 7th). And in the second example Mercury would just be a physical description or something else entirely, who knows.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
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Paul
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
Can anyone shed some light on this?


Ack, I wasn't sure what the question was to be honest.

In what sense are we looking at "the other person" the other person as in the third person in a relationship, ie, someone our partner is cheating on us with? Or the other person in our own relationship questions, where the other person is the guy we met and really fancy?

Quote:
I ask a horary and look the significators of L1 and L7 - this is only pertaining to love horaries.


Well really Lord 7 can be any person we enter into any form of relationship with - loving, friendship, business, acrimonious/competitor etc.

So in a legal horary where you ask if you will win your court case against Mr X, Mr X is seen by Lord 7, your legal competitor. In a question about the buying or selling of something, Lord 7 is the person you are buying/selling from/to.
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so what I am asking is, if you see this in a horary about something that has nothing to do with a third party and you see these "other" sigs on the descendant like Venus and 5th from 7th, is this a sign the person is seeing another person that wasn't clear until you saw it in the horary?
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Paul
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
Okay so what I am asking is, if you see this in a horary about something that has nothing to do with a third party and you see these "other" sigs on the descendant like Venus and 5th from 7th, is this a sign the person is seeing another person that wasn't clear until you saw it in the horary?


I think it really depends on what you're asking, but if it has nothing to do with a third party, I wouldn't automatically assume that the 5th from the 7th, also the radical 11th, would have to mean a third party. Let's imagine you ask who your partner is with, and you see the 5th from the 7th, I personally would see this as more indicative of the themes of the 11th like social circles, or the themes of the fifth such as games, and general fun, and so assume he's with his friends socialising. If malefics are involved or something which conveys the notion of something hidden, such as planets operating in combustion and out of dignity and he aspects malefics etc. then you may wonder about what he's doing, but it might not necessarily mean he's cheating - which I assume is what you mean by the "other person". I would also see if the angles are fixed or not, as fixed angles normally suggests a sense of fidelity in these matters.

I really don't think there's any simple way to view a chart as to whether or not they are cheating on you or not, but I really think that unless you are asking or implying asking this questions in the horary then I would presume other indications of the 5th first.

Same for venus or whatever other significator you would be worried about. If you're asking "what should I buy my husband for christmas" and you see Venus there, I wouldn't automatically think "he must be cheating" and instead wonder whether I should get him jewellery or something cosmetic for example.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
So, in the first example if Jupiter is alone and aspecting no one except L1 then there's no one else involved (regardless of Venus in the 7th).


The presence of another planet in a specific house could, in its own right, be descriptive of a guest. A planet conjunct an angle is technically forming an aspect - with the degree of the angle. If that angle rules a specific person or activity important for the question, then a relationship is established. However, as Paul has already mentioned, it is almost impossible to give an answer in a nutshell to such questions- it is usually the rest of the chart that will give the final answer. Should I find Venus inside the 7th in a question of this kind (especially if she is close to the angle), I would check the reception and see as to what it has got to say.

Quote:
If you're asking "what should I buy my husband for christmas" and you see Venus there, I wouldn't automatically think "he must be cheating" and instead wonder whether I should get him jewellery or something cosmetic for example.


Excellent point!

Cheers,

aglaya
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Becca



Joined: 17 Mar 2014
Posts: 57

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

Suppose we are asking a question about a third person in the context of a romance horary. Let's say that there is Taurus on the 7thH cusp > Venus, while there is Libra on the 11thH(5thH from the 7thH) cusp > Venus. How do we differentiate a significator for the third person? considering that Venus cannot simultaneously be a significator for this person and for our partner.

And for even further complication Smile - our 1stH significator is in the house of the third person in question.

Do we just completely think ourself out of the situation and use our significator as theirs, while we use the Moon or a co-significator of the 1stH for ourself? Resort to natural rulerships to find a fitting significator for them? Or, dare I say it...use modern rulerships?

Confused

P.S. The same possible frustration applies to Sagittarius and Pisces. Although I'm not sure about Aries and Scorpio, Aquarius and Capricorn.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

Becca wrote:
Suppose we are asking a question about a third person in the context of a romance horary. Let's say that there is Taurus on the 7thH cusp > Venus, while there is Libra on the 11thH(5thH from the 7thH) cusp > Venus. How do we differentiate a significator for the third person? considering that Venus cannot simultaneously be a significator for this person and for our partner.


Hi, Becca!

The third person in a love triangle is not necessarily ruled by a specific house- many times, that person is represented by a planet that describes the person well (both in terms of her characteristics and of the influence that she has on the situation). The ruler of either the Querent or the Quesited conjunct another planet or one of the significators receiving another planet in their own house by a benevolent aspect is a good sign of the existence of a 3rd party in its own right.

By assigning the 11th (turned 5th) to the potential mistress or lover, we are technically describing that person as the Quesited's light or sexual affair. In reality, we are maybe looking for a real danger- a woman whom the Quesited might leave his wife for. Or might have already left his wife for. In case of the second scenario, we are talking about a 7th house person and yet, we can't assign the 1st to that person, can we?!
Furthermore, although our first thought when love triangle charts are mentioned is "a search for a potential intruder", in reality, I would say that only about 50% of love triangle charts focuses on this type of quest. At least half of them are asked either by the third party herself ("Is he/she going to leave his wife/husband?") or by the party that has actually entered into a forbidden relationship and gotten lost ("Should I leave my husband over this man?").
Finally, if the house that we assume ruled the third party rules any other relevant person or activity, my advice would be to completely f+forget about it and to focus only on the presence of another planet. The reason; let us say that a man has fallen in love with his child's nanny or school teacher- the 5th rules his children and, in this particular case, we have a good reason to treat his children or their surroundings as "mediators" which makes them important for the story.

Cheers,

aglaya
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Becca



Joined: 17 Mar 2014
Posts: 57

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

aglaya wrote:
Becca wrote:
Suppose we are asking a question about a third person in the context of a romance horary. Let's say that there is Taurus on the 7thH cusp > Venus, while there is Libra on the 11thH(5thH from the 7thH) cusp > Venus. How do we differentiate a significator for the third person? considering that Venus cannot simultaneously be a significator for this person and for our partner.


Hi, Becca!

Hi aglaya

Thanks for a response.

I am thinking of this from the perspective that a querent suspects that there is a third person, but the querent does not know whether there is or isn't infact a third person. Quite possibly, the supposed third person might not exist and is simply a figment of the querent's imagination to begin with.

Quote:
The third person in a love triangle is not necessarily ruled by a specific house- many times, that person is represented by a planet that describes the person well (both in terms of her characteristics and of the influence that she has on the situation). The ruler of either the Querent or the Quesited conjunct another planet or one of the significators receiving another planet in their own house by a benevolent aspect is a good sign of the existence of a 3rd party in its own right.

I am aware that a third person would not be ruled by a specific house. One way to determine a significator for a possible 'her/him', as I said, is the ruler of a fitting house. In such an instance, the sign on the 5thH cusp and subsequently the planet. I agree that either significator aspecting a planet or in reception is symbolism which suggests that the querent/quesited is in the company of another person. But the nature of their 'relationship' and dynamic is in question until we determine where this person's significator is derived from, for e.g., is it 5thH, 11thH, etc. And how do we ascertain that it is a person? Maybe its a thing.

Quote:
By assigning the 11th (turned 5th) to the potential mistress or lover, we are technically describing that person as the Quesited's light or sexual affair. In reality, we are maybe looking for a real danger- a woman whom the Quesited might leave his wife for. Or might have already left his wife for. In case of the second scenario, we are talking about a 7th house person and yet, we can't assign the 1st to that person, can we?!

I'm not sure why you would describe such a scenario as, in your words, "real danger", but if that's how you wish to phrase it and perceive it...Smile okay then. If we are talking about a 7thH person, they cannot simultaneously be symbolised by the 1stH and 7thH ruler, so I am either not understanding what you are saying or you are not making any sense and are unaware of it.

Quote:
Furthermore, although our first thought when love triangle charts are mentioned is "a search for a potential intruder", in reality, I would say that only about 50% of love triangle charts focuses on this type of quest. At least half of them are asked either by the third party herself ("Is he/she going to leave his wife/husband?") or by the party that has actually entered into a forbidden relationship and gotten lost ("Should I leave my husband over this man?").

A "potential intruder", huh? Smile interesting. What type of quest would you say that the other 50% focuses on?

Quote:
Finally, if the house that we assume ruled the third party rules any other relevant person or activity, my advice would be to completely f+forget about it and to focus only on the presence of another planet. The reason; let us say that a man has fallen in love with his child's nanny or school teacher- the 5th rules his children and, in this particular case, we have a good reason to treat his children or their surroundings as "mediators" which makes them important for the story.

Cheers,

aglaya

Again, let's not make confusing statements of houses ruling people. I've said that houses do not, planets do. And rather than 'rule', I prefer to say 'symbolizes'. In my opinion, the focus should be moreso on a planet and not on a house. Sure, the 5thH is an environment of children and the ruler symbolizes the children themselves, but I personally think that it is unnecessary to add in thought of children in such a case or to think of them as "mediators", as you say.
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AquariusMoonPerson



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 83

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When someone asks about a third party in a lot of the charts I see a planet in the querents house because the querent is focused on them and that shows up in their house, too just like they are asking about the 7th (because its the quesited turned 7th). Anyone had this experience?
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Becca



Joined: 17 Mar 2014
Posts: 57

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

AquariusMoonPerson wrote:
When someone asks about a third party in a lot of the charts I see a planet in the querents house because the querent is focused on them and that shows up in their house, too just like they are asking about the 7th (because its the quesited turned 7th). Anyone had this experience?

Can we establish who the 'someone' is - is it someone asking a question pertaining to themself, or is it on behalf of another person?

Do you mean to say that you see a planet in the querent's house because the quesited is focused on them? because a planet or planets in the querent's house suggests that there are others who are focusing on the querent, not that the querent is focusing on others who are here.

Confused I don't understand what you're saying in the last bit. Who is the 'they'? is the 'they' the 'someone'? I also don't think that this sort of question is limited to the 1stH/7thH axis. An instance where it wouldn't be is if there is someone asking on behalf of another person and the main focus isn't on them but on who they are asking on behalf of.

I'm really not sure if I answered your entire question, but hopefully what I did answer helps.
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AquariusMoonPerson



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for writing so dumb Lala Happy .
Querent=1st----I look if there are any planets inside querent's house. If a planet is sitting in the 1st house (house of the querent), if its not the quesited already, as a possibility for another person.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Indicators of the "other person" Reply with quote

Becca wrote:


Thanks for a response.

I am thinking of this from the perspective that a querent suspects that there is a third person, but the querent does not know whether there is or isn't infact a third person. Quite possibly, the supposed third person might not exist and is simply a figment of the querent's imagination to begin with.


Besides the Quesited, the shape of the Querent's ruler needs to be examined well too- should we find one or more indicators of "unrealistic thoughts", "irrational fears" etc. we can initially assume that the problem is potentially non-existent.




Quote:
But the nature of their 'relationship' and dynamic is in question until we determine where this person's significator is derived from, for e.g., is it 5thH, 11thH, etc. And how do we ascertain that it is a person? Maybe its a thing.


That's one of the oldest questions in Astrology, isn't it?! :)Is the fact that the planet is coming from the 2nd saying that the person is a bank manager, rich or that the Querent is preoccupied by her finances?! I would say that we need to keep our common sense and focus onto the question- after all, we can't expect the chart to always say every single thing; if the querent is worried about losing her husband then, obviously, whether the potential intruder works in a bank or as a teacher doesn't make much difference to her.
Having mentioned the intruder...


Quote:
I'm not sure why you would describe such a scenario as, in your words, "real danger", but if that's how you wish to phrase it and perceive it...Smile okay then.



It is not really how I perceive things but, rather how strong the impact of a potential secret affair might have on the life of the Querent. And, this goes beyond astrology- some people would forgive their spouses for cheating on them, others wouldn't. That part has got nothing to do with the Astrologer.
Questions concerning potential mistresses and lovers are actually a quite common scenario in every horary astrologer's office. Besides, this is a question about love triangle (third parties) charts, so it is a natural example.
In addition, when I say real danger I mean- are we looking for a person who might turn the Querent's life in a completely different direction or are we looking for a sign of the existence of another party who, although affects the situation, will not (or cannot not) completely ruin the stability of the Querent's private life. These are actually very hard and often exhausting situations; for the Querent, of course but, also for the Astrologer. Imagine a woman with 3 kids who finds out that her husband is about to leave her for another woman after 2 decades of marriage- that is hardly a light love question. Now, in such a scenario, we are talking about a real intruder- the third party is, in that case, capable of turning the Querent's life upside-.down. In addition, that third party is definitelly not just the Quesited's one-night stand but rather someone very important in their life.

Needles to add, such situations sometimes involve persons whom the Querent is familiar with which brings even more agony to their life.


Quote:
If we are talking about a 7thH person, they cannot simultaneously be symbolised by the 1stH and 7thH ruler, so I am either not understanding what you are saying or you are not making any sense and are unaware of it.


That is exactly what I'm saying- if the Quesited is in a relationship with another person (third party) and willing to leave his family over this person, we can't really examine the third party as a 5th house person any more. At the same time, we can't assign the derived 7th to her either. For this reason, sticking with a planet (as oppose to a house) is, in my opinion, a much smarter idea.

Quote:
A "potential intruder", huh? Smile interesting. What type of quest would you say that the other 50% focuses on?


I believe you actually quoted my answer to this question. But, I'll try to explain it again. If a married woman comes to your office and says- "I want to know if my husband is cheating on me?", who would you say is the intruder, the wife or the potential third party?! On the other hand, if the mistress comes and asks "Will my lover leave his wife and move in with me?", we basically have a question asked by the intruder herself. By this I, of course, don't mean to be disrespectful of anyone however, in love matters, the presense of the 3rd party often means- dis-balance.
But, as I already mentioned in the quoted text, I wouldn't say that more than 50% are asked by wives/girlfriends. If you read it again, you will see that i actually mentioned who belongs to the 2nd half.



Cheers,

aglaya
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