Temperament 61 by Mjacob @Tom I noticed that my temperament analysis was slightly different from yours though we are using much the same criteria. I agree not sanguine but mostly phlegm. I can post my figures if needed but I do not think there is any exactitude in this MJ In any case the moon in his chart applies to the hot and dry sun then to Mars so that could point out how this temper manifests Matthew Goulding Quote Wed May 07, 2014 6:30 am
62 by Tom I used Frawley's method, which is a slightly modified version of Lilly's. Using that method there are 5 points: The ASC, the ruler of the ASC, the phase of the Moon, th,e season of the Sun, and the Lord of the geniture. Aspects to these five modify, but do not change the original condition. I didn't use the aspects for the sake of efficiency, but using them is the best way to do it. ASC Scorpio = cold and wet (phlegmatic) Lord ASC Mars occidental = dry in a cold wet sign so cold and slightly wet (or slightly dry) (phlegmatic bordering on melancholic) Moon in 4th quarter = cold and wet (phlegmatic) Sun in Virgo = cold and dry (melancholic) Placidus: Mercury is LoG dry in a cold dry sign so cold and dry (Melancholic) So yes slightly more phlegmatic than melancholic, but as Frawley said it is rough work and we are to put our inner Virgo to sleep. So, with Virgo not looking we have nearly equally melancholic and phlegmatic. Using the aspects might modify this some more. Other systems would emphasize Mars as Almutem and then use Mars as hot and dry (choleric), which is his essential nature, and not bother with whether he was oriental or occidental. These systems, too, have merit. Using whole signs we have the problem of the correct LoG. Mars in the first is probably the better choice as he is also Lord ASC and Mercury moves to the 11th sign. But not only Mars has a claim then, but so does Jupiter who is now elevated, exalted and in the 9th house. I'm leaning towards whole signs working best in this case as having three highly dignified planets above the horizon, including Lord ASC, in good houses, is consistent with the native's fame and influence. Having Regulus on the MC doesn't hurt either. His behavior however, is more Mars - Jupiter. Mars and Jupiter as significators of the manners will express different temperaments differently. Phlegmatic is the desire nature, having two weak planets signifying manners would result in a different expression of phlegmatic than this one. Melancholic is persistence, pragmatism, dependable and often stubborn. Our native was both rough, assertive, demandingm action oriented, etc all Mars traits, on the other hand he was extremely generous, at times philosophical, although he never would have used that word, intensely curious about the world not only his particular field, and spent his life lamenting his lack of a college education. All good Jupiter stuff Quote Wed May 07, 2014 11:25 am
63 by Tom [NOTE:] I'm having serious computer problems to the point where I will be forced to buy a new one meaning I will have to reinstall all my programs and upload all my files. This is going to be a time consuming and no doubt frustrating undertaking as this computer works only when it feels like it. It feels like it now, so I thought I would post what I had written about the native now and build on it when I get back. I'll be able to check from time to time, and I hope this will only be a short hiatus from Skyscript. Here is a sketch of our native complete with my reasons for selecting him: I started this wrap up four different times and four different ways. Each time I found myself wandering from the points I was trying to make. This time I?m going to try the most direct route. The native is American baseball player, Ted Williams (1918 ? 2002). He has been called the greatest hitter in the history of the game. I?m not going to bother with the statistics or try to explain to people who don?t know baseball about his accomplishments. Let?s just say that he easily meets Gauquelin?s definition of Champion Athlete, and therefore his Mars placement is not surprising. In addition to his athletic ability and accomplishments, Williams served in the US military in both WWII and the Korean War. In Korea he was a fighter pilot and flew over 30 combat missions after nearly being killed on his first one. He was also a world class fisherman which became his second passion after baseball. It is less well known that he was also an excellent hunter. Now look at all of those passions, athletics, hunting and fishing, flying fighter jets; they?re all Mars related. Add to that a natural agressivness, near contempt for authority, three marriages and three divorces (mars is the natural significator for divorce), a competitive drive second to none, and we see Mars playing out to his full potential. After his baseball career ended he published the definitive text on hitting a baseball titled ?The Science of Hitting,? in which he displayed an amazing knowledge of the physics and physiology of hitting a baseball at the major league level. He played his entire career in Boston for the Boston Red Sox and on many occasions, he would wander over to nearby MIT, The Massachusetts Institute of Technology, one of the world?s finest technical schools to discuss the physics of hitting with the professors. Williams had no formal education after high school (one of the few non college graduates to become a fighter pilot). I knew about him since childhood since he was my father?s favorite ballplayer. In fact the first baseball game I ever went to was the Yankees vs Red Sox and Williams was still playing. That was either 1958 or 1959. He retired after the 1960 season. For this reason I spent a little time with his chart when I discovered it. But it was Mars, kind of hanging out there over the horizon, in domicile that caught my attention. I was taught that if something jumps out at you in a chart, it does so for a reason. I wanted to investigate that reason. Williams had a powerful personality and that is something of an understatement. He had a feud with the members of the press that lasted his entire 22 year career and beyond. As an old man whose fame was secured, he would say to a friend, referring to the press, ?I outlasted the bastards.? When a rumor surfaced in the late 1940s that he would be traded for rival great and future Hall of Famer, Joe DiMaggio, he said if it happened he would quit baseball and take a job as a fireman. While training naval aviators during WWII he and other trainers were told that the Navy had more than enough pilots so they should begin to wash out some pilots even though they qualified. He refused. If you were good enough to make the team, you made the team. While he was between marriages (he would be married three times and each time the wife walked out on him), he had a long relationship with a woman who wanted to get married. He said he would marry her, but she had to accept that baseball came first, fishing second, and she would be third. Besides, he wanted her to send her children to boarding school so they wouldn?t be around so much. They didn?t like baseball. She turned him down. So we have this dominant strong willed personality that, in the words of one biographer, ?tried to bend the world to his will,? and yet he could be the most sentimental generous man on earth when it came to kids that were suffering. He spent 40+ years active in the Boston area children?s cancer charity, The Jimmy Fund.? He routinely visited sick children in hospitals while threatening the press if they breathed so much of a word about it. They hated him, so they didn?t. Of course he would bring gifts and those gifts wouldn?t be small tokens or baseballs, but television sets. From time to time financially strapped families with a seriously ill child would discover that he picked up the hospital bill ? all of it. When he was a very old and sick man from having several strokes, he noticed a teenage girl in the hospital who was suffering from a condition that crippled her. She needed physical therapy and the best thing for her would be having that therapy in a swimming pool that her parents did not have. Williams insisted, no demanded, that she have the therapy in his pool at his home. At one point he told her parents he would pay for her college education. They said that because of her disability, their insurance and the state would cover it. ?Well then what else does she need?? She needed expensive physical therapy equipment. He bought it for her. When he was asked why, he said that he saw her struggling to take just two or three steps in an attempt to walk, it was painful as hell for her and the pain brought tears to her eyes. But he said she smiled through all of it. Here she was 17 years old and struggling that and he considered his own self-pity for his own condition at that time and felt guilty. She had no idea who he was and when someone told her she looked at him and said simply, ?You?re famous.? He was embarrassed. She later called him, ?My angel.? This seesaw aspect of his personality could well be related to the Mars Jupiter significators of the manners. Strong willed and defiant on one hand, noble and generous on the other. But it is all still Mars. Even his generosity was aggressive. To be continued Quote Sat May 10, 2014 1:40 am
64 by Tom I'm going to add this tidbit, but I will be gone for a few days as I'm switching computers probably beginning tomorrow. Right now this one is working, but that may not last long. I neglected to give the birth data so here goes: Ted Williams Aug 30 1918 12:20 PM PST San Diego, CA His best season as a baseball player was 1941. If we cast a solar return for 1940, which will last until the last four weeks of the baseball season, we notice that Mars, in the 1940 SR chart is cazimi. Mars rules the natal ASC and the Sun rules the MC. Fits nicely, particularly since he accomplished something that year that has not been accomplished since - he hit.406 for the season. He had other great seasons but one stands out in particular - 1957, which was nearing the end of his career when he was past his physical prime. I haven't done the SR for that year, but it might be well worth looking at. Use 1956 for the SR year. Two other points that should be discussed. No one would ever guess by looking at him http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... lorida.jpg since he was 6'3" or 6'4" tall and over 200 lbs in good shape, but his mother was 100% Mexican. His father was of Welsh descent according to one biographer, other places in the UK according to others. Regardless they all have his ancestors somewhere in the UK. Quote Sun May 11, 2014 5:18 pm
65 by Mjacob Thank you for the update. Certainly in this case the WSH seems to work better than Quadrant. This approach is advocated at present by Ben Dykes both in his entry level book and his audio workshops. Elsewhere on the forum this issue has been mentioned in the context of Vettius Valens. It has been suggested that WSH was the simpler entry level system before they moved onto the more sophisticated quadrant system but who knows. I hesitate to mention Gauquelin in the trad forum Matthew Goulding Quote Sun May 11, 2014 7:08 pm
66 by Tom Here is my take on WSH vs quadrant houses IN THIS CHART: Whole signs put Mars in the First and the exalted Jupiter in the 9th. As far as his actions go and the events of his life, this makes more sense than Mars in 12. However, and this was not discussed in any depth, Mr. Williams had anger issues which resulted in a near violent temper, difficulties in marriage, and difficulties with many other relationships. However he always had plenty of friends. It's been speculated by many armchair psychologists that his rage could be due to his being all but ignored by his mother after his father left. His mother was extraordinarily involved with the Salvation Army, a charity organization, to the point where she ignored Ted and his brother Danny. They were left alone while growing up more often than not. Ted could play ball and practiced constantly. Danny became a petty thief often in trouble with the law. This is also used to explain Williams' concern for children that were dealt dirty deals by life, whether it was cancer or just being in a situation like his. He always pulled for and stuck up for the underdog. Others have suggested it was his concern or perhaps shame at his half Mexican heritage. Racial prejudice being what it was as he came of age, it would not have been unusual if Williams was concerned that his heritage could hurt his baseball career. That's a lot to carry around and that suppressed anger is easily seen with Mars in 12. I'm not advocating or dismissing these ideas. They're out there and they could have played a role in his development and subsequent personality and they are Mars in 12. Jupiter exalted in 9 could represent his near brutal honesty. It's not that he lacked tact, but if you asked for his opinion, you got it and wouldn't be candy coated. He said what was on his mind, and he rarely apologized if he was wrong. He had his own ideas on how things should be ordered and he didn't back down. These things argue for Whole Sign houses, but the internal rage argues for Mars in 12. Do with this as you see fit. Quote Mon May 12, 2014 1:23 am
67 by james_m tom - thanks for the overview and summation on this fellow i didn't know. i think we are no further ahead in deciding on a specific house system, which i think is ultimately a good thing. i would say mars is very strong in this chart and you have given us a chart of a person who demonstrates many martial traits - athletic, involved in the military and etc. etc. a few of the planets near the midheaven and nonagesimal are strong as well. the idea of reading divorce off only mars makes no sense to me personally. upon seeing the chart, venus (ruler of the 7th) applying to saturn - it makes a lot more sense. i think this conjunction of venus to saturn might help explain his relationship with his mom as well which could easily extend to any women who was interested in the idea of marriage with him. i don't know where one can pinpoint the support for the underdog.. i tend to think of that as water sign energy myself. his chart certainly has a lot of this.. as for brutal honesty - i tend to see this as saturn in leo square onto the ascendant.. jupiter in 9th - i have this - it makes one philosophical more then brutally honest i think. i don't want to say i can see the relativity in everything, but i think jupiter in cancer with the moon in cancer as well - indicates a type of sensitivity not given over to brutal honesty. i think that is coming from saturn squared onto the ascendant from leo.. but hey - it is astro interpretation and to each his own.. thanks again for offering this exercise to us. Quote Mon May 12, 2014 2:07 am
68 by Tom "Brutally honest" may have been an overstatement and is a value judgment. I tried to soften it with noting that he didn't lack tact, but I'm not so sure I'd ever use "brutally honest" again. Honest is accurate. Saying what is on his mind in blunt terms is accurate. Whether or not that was brutal is up to the observer. Mars is the general significator for divorce, but everyone has Mars somewhere and everyone doesn't get divorced. Ruler of the ASC in the sign (in WS houses) opposite the 7th is a red flag. Venus applying to Saturn in detriment is another one and they both potentially say the same thing. Ted Williams was a force. Unlike a lot of athletes whose star fades the longer they are away from their sport, he was always around, always making his presence known, always a fascinating figure. Sportscaster Bob Costas interviewed him once and said something like this; You were a Hall of Fame baseball player, a military hero, hero to child cancer victims and their families, ... you led the life John Wayne portrayed on the screen." Williams shrugged and said with embarrassment, "I know." Once after the 1960 Presidential election and JFK was in the White House after defeating then Vice President Richard Nixon, Williams was invited to the White House. Kennedy was, of course, from Massachusetts, the home of the Boston Red Sox, Williams' team. The phone message was placed on Williams Desk. He ignored it. It was put there again. He ignored it again. Finally a huge piece of paper was placed on his desk where he couldn't miss it. He told his assistant "No." "Ted you can't just say "no." It's the White House." I have to give them a reason." Replied Williams, "Tell them I'm a Nixon man." Another time Howard Stern, shock radio personality, never known for delicacy, sent one of his clowns out to interview Ted when Ted was old and confined to a wheel chair. Williams probably had no idea who Stern was or what his show was like. When the interviewer, who started out typically switched gears and said something childish and vulgar, Williams turned to him and said with menace and contempt, "What did you say to me sonny?" Later on the interviewer would tell Stern, "That was scary. It was like being yelled at by your father." There is one more part to his saga that took place after his death. I don't have time at the moment to get into it in detail, but if you Google his name or check him out on Wiki, it's there. Let's see if it's in the chart. Quote Mon May 12, 2014 10:58 am
69 by Mjacob What happens after death is a fourth house matter and that includes burial there are no planets anywhere near the fourth house so I suppose Saturn had has something to do with his son not carrying out his wishes for cremation but even in hindsight it is hard to see this Matthew Goulding Quote Mon May 12, 2014 6:02 pm
70 by Tom The story of Ted Williams' remains is complex and I'm not so sure it can be seen in a natal chart, but using Placidus, Mars rules the 5th house of children as well as the ASC. Mars is also on the contra-antiscia of Saturn, ruler of the 4th. His relationship with his children, particularly at the end of his life with his son, is, in my opinion, sad. Some suggest he overcompensated for not participating at all in their being raised, which is eerily similar to the way he was raised. He had three children, the oldest, Mary Jo, by one marriage, and the next two John Henry and Claudia by a different marriage. Today only Claudia survives. Mary Jo died prematurely of complications due to her alcoholism, and John Henry died only two years after his father's death of a congenital form of leukemia that also killed Ted's brother. John Henry is seen by some as perhaps a young ambitious, but not terribly competent young man sincerely interested in his father's legacy. By others as a self-centered opportunistic bastard who took advantage of his father's failing health to make as much money as he could off of his father's name before his death up to and including this preposterous cryogenics idea. I favor the latter viewpoint. All the good intentions in the world don't erase the evil. Quote Mon May 12, 2014 11:19 pm