skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Stoicism and Astrology - Robert Zoller
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 100

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Stoicism and Astrology - Robert Zoller Reply with quote

Very good article on Stoicism and Astrology by Robert Zoller placing importance on Virtue
(From the NCGR Journal - Winter 1987-1988 (Philosophy Issue))

http://www.geocosmic.org/articles/stoicism.shtml

Quoting from Robert Zoller's interview -
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/zoller.html

But to answer your question about astrology more directly: Astrology, for me, is an indication of God's will. God created the cosmos, the lights, the firmament, and all the rest of that sort of stuff for purposes, for signs and times. In the final analysis, there is only one will - and mine is not that will. So, if I can conform myself to that will and work in accordance with it, perhaps there's a chance that I can achieve those goals that I was referring to. Astrology might help me to do that, or at least it might help me to recognize that my efforts, ultimately, are not good enough - there's something larger that has to come into the picture.

So, to the degree to which you become humbled by astrology and scared of astrology and realize your own incompetence and insufficiency, I think that you arrive at the first step from which real spiritual work can begin. That's my current opinion on the subject. If astrology leads us to that realization, it has done a major service for mankind.

Astrology also, I think, can do service to mankind by showing that things happen in their own times - that the individual human will sometimes appears to be capable of making things happen before their times, but most of the time what people do just nuances, fine-tunes, or twists a little bit the way things actually happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zagata



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 77

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for sharing, Vasanth. Very Happy

Robert Zoller is an absolute must for anyone wanting to get deeper into the real, both predictive and spiritual, Astrology.
_________________
Longevity and 24 Hour Rectification Services:

https://100percentastrology.wordpress.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 872
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vasanth, if you refer to the Bible and the Jewish and Christian religions, then they are not completely fatalistic. It's not simply a question of finding out what God (or the planets) want, and then getting your *** in gear to conform.

Moral choice in the Bible is always an option-- and even an imperative. In the Bible, righteous people sometimes even question God.

Also, humans in the Bible are not disconnected from God. We are a small part of what God is.

Chapters and verses available upon request.

Fatalism in astrology has a much older root than stoicism. The Mesopotamians who invented astrology believed that the planets either were gods, or displayed omens from which the gods' wills could be divined. The ancient Egyptians who long predated stoicism similarly believed in a cosmic order: to shape one's life according to that order was good, to confound it was bad. The ancient Greeks believed in the three Fates, who are not noticeably on the radar for people today.

But if we think about it, these are merely "made up" belief systems. We can apply any sort of belief system to astrology that we want. Obviously, we all think there is some necessary correspondence between planets and events on earth or we wouldn't be here; but the extent to which this correspondence is deterministic is a huge question.

Quantum physics and neuroscience have much to say on this matter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waybread

Would those chapters and verses include the parable of the talents by any chance?

Indeed I would not mind seeing the others.As for philosophy in general I have the idea it is something we read about rather than actually "do"

Must read the Zoller article though

Matthew
_________________
Matthew Goulding
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 872
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjacob, I was thinking of verses like:

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."
James 4:8, Zechariah 1:3, Malachi 3:7, Psalm 145:18, &c.

"Seek, and you shall find, ask and it shall be given."
Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9, John 14:13, 15:7; Psalm 37:4, Jeremiah 29:13

Beginning with the garden of Eden and the story of Cain and Abel, the Bible has always stressed the human imperative for moral choice. The Bible also stresses the effectiveness of petitionary prayer.

Incidentally I am not a Christian-- I merely observe that astrology under Christianity is not bound by astral determinism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you

I had not presumed that you were but thanks for the refs. I was just thinking of how God or one of his adherents should judge a sinner with a bad chart. We all have two malefics in our charts after all and they can be literally so

Regards
_________________
Matthew Goulding
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 872
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moreover, we would have to question why the kindly, loving God of the monotheistic religions would create an evil person. Except for a few small sects like the Puritans (who believed in predestination) I think their religious view is children are born innocent but can become evil during their lives.

I read the Zoller links and find him to be a thoughtful person, but am not sure how or why he reached his conclusions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having spent most of my life in the C20th I look back on that era. In the sixties we were optimistic and idealist. but earlier on much wickedness occurred.

If a good person suffers and loses hope they can ask why God has abandoned them. It would be facile to tell them to rely on faith but at least charity remains

My reply is short but but I do spend time reflecting on the issues you raise

Matthew
_________________
Matthew Goulding
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4919
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The excellent BBC Radio 4 programme 'In Our Time' had an episode on Stoicism which is free to listen to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9fs

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 668

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark, I will listen to that later. I love that Epictetus quote: "Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them."
_________________
http://www.esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4919
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some other programmes from the BBC 'In Our Time' series which are connected to the theme of ancient philosophy and religion:

Babylon:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p004y25j

The Library of Ninevah
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00b7r71

The Greek Myths
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0093z1k

The Delphic Oracle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00txj8d

The Harmony of the Spheres
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00c1fct

Pythagoras:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00p693b

Socrates
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007zp21

Cynicism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9js

Epicureanism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qf083

Neoplatonism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01g62w1

Scepticism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01kblc3

Materialism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009ydlj

Gnosticism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4rhz

The Cult of Mithras
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pg5nt

Ptolemy and Ancient Astronomy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017528d

Galen
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c4dys

Boethius (The Consolation of Philosophy)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00g46p0

Paganism in the Renaissance
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9ct
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 668

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark. Do you know of any way to rip the audio from the embedded flash player? My usual methods are failing and I would like to listen to these as I work.
_________________
http://www.esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 100

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On similar theme is Robert Hand's excellent lecture on 'Astrology, Morality, & Ethics'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L6eb4wK_Pk

"Proper life is one which the soul and body encounters the unfolding of the divine plan in nature according the divine plan within the self as is revealed in the chart. It does so in the state of highest possible awareness, not driven by passions, not operating as a mechanical system, but through a free choice in which it freely chooses to do exactly what it is supposed to do. That's pronoia. You choose to do exactly what it is you are supposed to do.

It turns the operations of fate into the operations of providence. And the soul so oriented, becomes not a prisoner of matter or fate but a co-creator of the world; an aspect of God experiencing itself, acting upon itself and knowing itself for what it is."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 445
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vasanth wrote (quoting Robert Zollner): Mar 26, 2014 9:56 pm
Quote:
In the final analysis, there is only one will - and mine is not that will.


If there is only one will, how can Zollner's will not be that will?

Vasanth wrote (quoting Robert Zollner): Mar 26, 2014 9:56 pm
Quote:
So, to the degree to which you become humbled by astrology and scared of astrology and realize your own incompetence and insufficiency, I think that you arrive at the first step from which real spiritual work can begin.


Only if what is meant by "real spiritual work" is a thorough psychotherapy!

Waybread wrote: Mar 27, 2014 4:52 am
Quote:
But if we think about it, these are merely "made up" belief systems. We can apply any sort of belief system to astrology that we want. Obviously, we all think there is some necessary correspondence between planets and events on earth or we wouldn't be here; but the extent to which this correspondence is deterministic is a huge question.


Yes, this is a very important question. Your belief in (in)determinism will in fact determine your life. Laughing

Waybread wrote: Mar 27, 2014 4:52 am
Quote:
Quantum physics and neuroscience have much to say on this matter.


Quantum physics shows that in every moment, there exists an infinity of different possibilities. It is an open question how this can be reconciled with and what this means for astrology.

If we believe that our astrological universe is totally deterministic then we actually choose to live in a Newtonian universe in which everything is predetermined right from the start.

Michael
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 872
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the links, Mark!

Determinism isn't identical with stoicism, although they have much overlap. Determinists have to be careful to avoid the circular reasoning that runs like, "What had to happen did happen."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated