16
one other comment about the moon - it is always a hugely important consideration to any chart which i think most astrologers would quickly acknowledge.. regarding the firmicus maternus book - or however that is spelt - one great idea that i got from that material is the importance of the previous and upcoming aspects the moon would make to planets. in this chart, the last aspect the moon would have made before birth would be to mars, while the next would be to mercury.. whether one wants to use midpoints or not - the fact the moon is sandwiched between these 2 planets - past and future - can't be ignored and must be considered quite relevant to this chart..

17
I hope that you did not imagine that I thought mercury in one of twelve signs said all about the mind. One can judge the quality of mercury simply by looking at whether it is in Movable, fixed or double-bodied signs in this context but you must take into account the moon and ascendant, temperament and chart ruler too.

I did come across a reference to Saturn governing the affairs of others that was relevant to this chart. The honesty and morals of the native I adjudged by looking at his character and found them wanting.
Put the two together and you get embezzler. Then I asked how such a native would experience major change and inferred a jail sentence connected with fraud. I did not see that he would murder when exposed but it is close to the truth; a truth discovered by logic, in other words deduction

Yes the planet to which the moon applies is worth looking at but in the case of sandwiching I would say the bread has to either malefic or benefic on each sides. I am thinking of the similar metaphors of besiegement or enclosure. In this case the aspects of Mars can surely do no good to mercury or moon I would guess


I am phone right now and eyes tired. Will try and elucidate when on big screen if asked

Matthew
Matthew Goulding

Liars

18
Abu Bakr wrote
If the moon separated from mars , applied to mercury,and both were oriental,the native will be a liar,not to mention a master of fraud and betrayal
Not exact but worth sharing

Matthew
Matthew Goulding

19
Hello Mjacob and james_m:

I believe the separation and application of the Moon is called the collection and translation of light, an important concept in the horary astrology taught by Lilly. I do not recall having read about it in Maternus though, but I might have.



EDIT:

Sorry, collection of light is something else:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/collection.html

It is translation of light:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/translation.html
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The appearance changes, but the essence remains.

21
Larxene

My reply on friday was lost but the gist was that Lilly, if memory serves used Sahl as a source and I am sure he and others like Masha'allah listed all these planetary conditions like collection and transfer of light.

I look forward to see if you make anything of duodecatomoriae.

Regards
Matthew Goulding

23
Err, yes, I use the 12th harmonic version. But the original planets are not there. It's easier to make comparisons with the original planets and dodekatemoria in the same chart.

I used Morinus 6.03 (Traditional) to generate the chart.


Note that I have already made my delineation. I just could not post the fricking image to facilitate our discussion.
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The appearance changes, but the essence remains.

25
Awesome! Here are my additional comments about the mystery chart.



Main Events


(a) Actions/Profession:

1. He did not pass an examination required to be a doctor. (1975)
2. He deceived his family and peers by telling them he was a qualified doctor, that he was a medical researcher/consultant for the WHO, and presumably succeeded for 18 years.
3. Seems to have had a good reputation for his fake profession.


(b) Money, Investments, Livelihood:

1. He persuaded his parents and relatives to give him money to invest. He used the money to fund his living instead.
2. In 1992 he was running out of money and had an overdraft.


(c) Marriage and Children:

1. Married his cousin. (19/9/1980)
2. Had two children. (14/5/1985, 2/2/1987)


(d) Extramarital affairs:

1. Had an ex-mistress who demanded a return of her investment.


(e) Crime:

1. He murdered his wife, two children and his parents. (8-11 Jan 1993)
2. He tried to murder his ex-mistress but he failed.
3. Arson: he burned his house.


(f) Attempted Suicide:

1. He set his house on fire, consumed expired sleeping pills and slept in the house. He was saved by firemen.


(g) Imprisonment:

1. In July 1993, he was sentenced to life imprisonment with no parole for 22 years.



Interpretation in Hindsight


Actions/Profession:

First of all, none of the planets on the angles are dignified. So we should examine the planets in the other houses. It turns out that none of the planets are dignified. This should have alerted me to say that this person, without a doubt, has no real profession or work, that is, no means of livelihood.

Maternus says,
?This too we should know, that an average chart is that which has a single planet on its own sign, located in an important house of the chart. The man who has a chart with two planets...is blessed with moderately good fortune. Fortunate and powerfully beyond the usual is the one who has three...while on the other hand, he who has no planet in its own sign will forever be unknown, of low-born family, and doomed to a miserable life.?
The kind of ?miserable? life he lives depends on the chart. Using Equal Houses, Mars is the most dominating planet on the angles. The dominated planets are all in the 10th, so they may have something to say about the native's actions/profession.

The Sun does not usually signify profession. In the 10th, it usually signifies either the honour or promotion that the native receives from his work, or it signifies the native's superiors. The native does seem to be well-regarded in his community before the truth came out.

Venus is out-of-sect, undignified and combust, so she cannot really produce anything for the native with regards to work. However, because she is in a dexter square aspect with the ascendant, she affects the character and if nothing else, makes him slightly charming.

Mercury is out-of-sect, in fall, and I'm not sure if it is combust (after reading about the issue, it's complicated so I have not made up my mind yet). Either way, it seems like a strong significator for Romand's actions/profession.

Valens says in Book 1, page 5 (Schmidt trans):
?Properly speaking, it [Mercury] makes temple-builders, brick-makers, sculptors, physicians, writers...?
In fact, Romand signed up for a medical course, but the dominating influence of Mars and Saturn led to the educational fiasco. It was reported that he failed his examination in the year 1975, when he was 21 years old. By annual profection, it is the 22nd year. Aquarius was the profected ascendant, and Saturn was in the 10th House. His malefic rays caused him to fail the exam. (Someone correct me if my use of profection is wrong.)

Nevertheless, he continued to disguise himself as a medical professional. Here I want to make the point that although Saturn naturally brings about deception (?feigned appearances?), Mars-Mercury combinations also produce liars and criminals, especially since Mars in square to Mercury here, and they are not well-placed.

Note the dodekatemorion of Mercury. It is in opposition to Mars and his dodekatemorion.
?3. Mars and Mercury in opposition indicate the greatest calamities. Either the natives will be apprehended for the crime of forging documents, or they are associated in evil knowledge with criminals, or they live a life of crime with wrong-doers and poisoners...
4. Possessed by greed, they may...or refuse to return goods entrusted to them. For any of these crimes they may be brought to judgment.?
[Liber Sextus, page 196]
Intriguingly, Mercury's dodekatemorion is in Gemini, where he is dignified by sign. This probably shows that he is secretly a very intellectual person, or that he is smart when it comes to secret matters. You would have to be quite smart in order to convince your family that you are a doctor, without actually being one, simply by reading medical documents. Romand also made the impression that he lived in Switzerland by using the reading materials he got from tourist pamphlets.


Money, Investments, Livelihood:

Mars afflicts Jupiter in the 2nd House by opposition, and also afflicts the 2nd House ruler (Mercury) strongly by square. Combine this with what I said above, and we get the picture that he swindled money from other people. He tricked people into letting him plunder them. His methods were Mercurial, but his actions were Martial.

The quotes I made in my previous post also shows a fluctuation in income, which turns out to be true. He got a lot of money from his relatives and (presumably) friends at first, and became rich. However, eventually he used up the money and fell into debt.


Marriage and Children:

I am too lazy to delineate this part. Someone else can do this.

...Is what I said, but I saw something interesting when doing a later part of this post. The Moon's dodekatemorion is in the 4th Sign. The Moon rules over the 3rd House, which Schmidt claims (in one of his old articles) to signify siblings, neighbours, the guest-host relationship, travelling...but also of relatives.

In the same article, he said that Valens mentioned the 4th House as signifying the wife. Now, intriguingly, using Maternus's equation for the Lot of the Wife, the Lot falls in Leo! So what this all means is that ?the native takes a relative as his wife.? The Moon symbolises the mother, so perhaps the cousin he married is from his mother's side.

As I noted below, the ruler of the 5th is in Mercury. Mercury is barren, according to Lilly, because he ?discerns nothing of himself.? Let us look at the signs Mercury is in. Virgo is the most barren (virgins do not give birth), Pisces is the second most fertile sign (the sign of Jupiter, exaltation of Venus), and Gemini (Mercury's dodek) is barren. Taurus (Lot of Children) is more fertile than barren (sign of Venus, exaltation of Moon).

This is a qualitative judgement, but I will say that the number of children will be below average, or a moderately small number of children.


Extramarital Affairs:

At first sight, there seems to be no indication of this. However, the dodekatemoria have come to save the day again. Venus's 12th Part is very closely conjoined to Mars, and she is also conjoined to Mars's 12th Part. The fact that only the dodekatemoria tell the story indicates that he was most likely successful in keeping his affair a secret from his wife and family.


Crime:

Murder of parents ? Mars, in the 8th sign (death) is opposite the Moon (mother) but the former is not in hard aspect with the Sun (father). Let us look at the house rulers. According to Maternus, parents is the 4th House. 4th House ruler is the Sun, and again, no hard aspect. :) Let us examine the dodekatemoria. Saturn himself is in the 7th House, and the 7th House signifies death, among other things. This Saturn dominates the Sun (parents). Furthermore, we have Saturn's dodek in close conjunction with Sun and Venus. Now we only need to find the link between the death of the parents and the native. The ascendant is ruled by Venus, and Venus is with this combination in the 10th. They are all in the terms of Mars, except for Venus, I think.

Therefore, we can delineate this as, ?death of the parents in the hands of the native through violent means.?

Okay, that sounds a bit made up. Haha.

Murder of wife and children ? Wife is the 7th House. Saturn is in the 7th sign and well-placed for disaster. Saturn is in the terms of Venus (the native). Saturn and Venus are often incompatible. From this, we can proclaim ?death of the wife at the hands of the native?. It should be noted that only the wife was killed with blunt trauma, while the rest of the victims were shot. Maybe Saturn makes people kill in a different way from Mars (which is more about cutting and burning).

Children is showed by the 5th House. This is ruled by Mercury in Pisces (bi-corporeal and fertile sign, so maybe that's why he had two children?), and it is in square with Mars. Mercury is in the terms of Venus (again we see the same pattern). ?Native killed his children through violent means.?

If we look at the dodekatemoria of Mercury, again we see that it is afflicted by being in opposition with Mars, Mars's dodek and Venus's dodek. Mercury's dodek in the terms of Saturn, once more associates it with death.

Arson ? Mars in the 8th in Saggitarius and Jupiter in the 2nd in opposition. Mars naturally signifies burns, but even more so when in a fiery sign. Jupiter is the natural significator of wealth, but even more so when in the 2nd House. Jupiter in the terms of Venus (again!). ?Burning of one's property.?

Lot of Possessions in Leo, Lot of Fortune in Leo. The Venus-Sun-Saturn in Mars's terms shows this destruction of one's property and home as well. In fact, that combination explains all the crimes.


Attempted Suicide:

That Venus was burned by the Sun's rays and conjoined to Saturn also shows this suicidal event. The fact that Aquarius is the 7th sign (death) from Fortune may also imply this. It is interesting how that combination is so prominent, in retrospect.

Why was he saved? Jupiter and the waxing Moon in trine to the 10th may have helped. Perhaps Mars being in sextile with Venus makes it so that only the house was destroyed, but the native survived. Or maybe the time lords during that time was not threatening to his life.

The fact that only Venus was not in the terms of Mars may also indicate that the native did not die a violent death.

Imprisonment:

One of the quotes from Maternus said that his crime led to his imprisonment.

Another way of seeing this (though this may sound superficial) is that Saturn, the Lord of Limitations and Constriction in Scorpio, a solid sign, is in hard aspect to all that signifies the native: Ascendant, Venus and Fortune.



Okay, that's it.
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The appearance changes, but the essence remains.

26
Much to look at here. Firstly Morin casts doubt on the idea that combustion is a big deal in natal . In book 18.2 he states " Even combust planets,however,clearly manifest their influence on the sublunar world" ref to book 16.3.3

Once again I will check but some authors suggest that the natural significators of trade are the inner planets but only when angular.i took Saturn to signify mastery here and in view of events would say his trade was not doctor but financial advisor.

Looking at CA page 265 eg Lilly insists that they aspect the moon partilly but hard to ignore them here and indeed he does allow aspect by moiety of orb (reading for mediety)only lastly does consider the tenth lord.

Lastly the close opposition to ascendant has much importance but his aspect to Venus and PF less so in my opinion at least
Matthew Goulding