Questions in which honesty is doubted

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One thing sure to drive me up the wall are questions that go along the lines of "Was s/he being honest with me?" Because I can't quite understand how to answer them. I generally use Lilly's guidelines on whether the report is true or false, but I have a gut feeling this isn't always appropriate. Theoretically you should only use this technique if you hear a rumor, such as Allison telling you that John cheated on his wife. However, what about when John decides to approach you for a relationship telling you he's in the process of divorcing his wife? You ask "Was John being honest about divorcing his wife?" and yes, I suppose such a question could be verified in the end, but then you'd have to get messy and insert yourself into John's marriage which has allegedly reached its conclusion...or has it? Or if you want to know whether your current girlfriend has feelings for her ex that she has "accidentely bumped into" far too many times these past few weeks for it to be a coincidence, so you ask her if she still has feelings for him and she says no...but if she REALLY being honest?

There you have it. Also surely there are questions in the same manner of friendship to which I will assume you somehow apply the 11th house ruler.

But generally, how do you answer these 'is s/he being honest?' questions. Please offer input.

ST

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A kind of nice rule of thumb is given by Frawley in his Horary Textbook, p. 165, under the headline:
'Can I trust him?':

Look at the person's significator, chosen by house as usual. The more essential dignity it has, the more honourable he is.
[..]

Mercury is always tricky, even if dignified. Mercury is by nature amoral, so even if it is strong [...], it is likely to show someone who is honest only as long as it suits him. [...]
Except of course when otherwise special rules with certain questions are given, for example with questions of honesty in partnerships &c.

But eve then the rule above is of practical help.

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You might find a corruption between the Lord of the planetary hour and the radical ascendant, i.e. a combination of Mercury and the Moon, or the Moon and Mars. It should be inspected.

The lord of the 7th or a planet in the 7th in its exaltation is more naugthy than if in its detriment or fall. The lord of the 7th in the 11th or the lord of the 11th in anyway mixed into the picture gives a clue regarding the infidelity of the spouse, if this is in question.
http://www.astronor.com

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johannes susato wrote:A kind of nice rule of thumb is given by Frawley in his Horary Textbook, p. 165, under the headline:
'Can I trust him?':

Look at the person's significator, chosen by house as usual. The more essential dignity it has, the more honourable he is.
[..]

Mercury is always tricky, even if dignified. Mercury is by nature amoral, so even if it is strong [...], it is likely to show someone who is honest only as long as it suits him. [...]
Except of course when otherwise special rules with certain questions are given, for example with questions of honesty in partnerships &c.

But eve then the rule above is of practical help.
Hi Johannes,

Thanks for your response. I notice in this kind of situation Lilly usually uses the 1st house ruler. In his book almost exclusively tells us to look at the Ascendant, the Moon, and Venus to see if the woman is honest, if she's a maid, and I think even when he talks about trading with any but her husband. So, in partnership questions where we seek to find out if the person is honest do we use the the 7th or the 1st?

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StellarTiggy wrote:So, in partnership questions where we seek to find out if the person is honest do we use the the 7th or the 1st?
As the honesty of the querent will be 'understood' (or is at least not questioned by himself probably), we would have to look at the 7th and its ruler, &c.

I am sure that this opinion is in full consent with Lilly's teachings.

Re: Questions in which honesty is doubted

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StellarTiggy wrote: There you have it. Also surely there are questions in the same manner of friendship to which I will assume you somehow apply the 11th house ruler.

But generally, how do you answer these 'is s/he being honest?' questions. Please offer input.

ST
I think if the question can be rephrased to address the concern that is on the querent's mind, then the chart becomes much easier to read. So rewording it more directly to "is he cheating on me" or something of that nature.

Questions in which honesty is doubted

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...I suppose such a question could be verified in the end, but then you'd have to get messy and insert yourself into John's marriage which has allegedly reached its conclusion...or has it?
I think it does get really complicated if multiple people are considered in the interpretation. At that point, you might want to simplify the question to the person or people who matter most in the situation.
But generally, how do you answer these 'is s/he being honest?' questions. Please offer input.
When we inquire about a particular person - The more dignity that their ruler garners, the more dignified they are in their conduct and this is further affirmed if the ruler is a benefic. If this individual's feelings for another person are in question, the reception and aspect between their rulers will give a clue about the interaction. If there is someone and they are being kept 'hidden' to our knowledge, their ruler will most likely appear combust or in the 12H and lack dignity.

Re: Questions in which honesty is doubted

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I think it does get really complicated if multiple people are considered in the interpretation. At that point, you might want to simplify the question to the person or people who matter most in the situation.
And I do - but again think about it like this - if *I* tell *you* something about person X, then you are in the situation either way.
When we inquire about a particular person - The more dignity that their ruler garners, the more dignified they are in their conduct and this is further affirmed if the ruler is a benefic. If this individual's feelings for another person are in question, the reception and aspect between their rulers will give a clue about the interaction. If there is someone and they are being kept 'hidden' to our knowledge, their ruler will most likely appear combust or in the 12H and lack dignity
Fair enough, but do we use the essential dignity of the 1st house ruler as Lilly tells us, even if we are asking about the honesty of our partner or friend? And is it always so cut and dry that planets in the 12th indicate the party being lied about?

Case in point I can give you an example, many months ago I asked a horary about the honesty of my partner with relation to one of his friends. He told me he felt a certain way about the friend and I asked if what he had said was true. It was a Cancer Rising with Jupiter on the Ascendant (an argument for honesty), but the Moon (ruler of the 1st) was in the last face of Gemini the 12th (a huge argument for dishonesty). Lilly tells us that the woman's honesty is doubted with the Moon in the last face of Gemini and the Ascendant ruler, Moon, and Venus all being mutable or common signs and not in angular houses. However, let's use another approach. The question was about a significant other - we use the Ascendant ruler to signify me (I am the Moon in the 12th) and him to be Saturn in Scorpio in the 5th (his 11th - appropriate for the question of friendship) and he is also co-present with Venus in Scorpio and the North Node. He would clearly be in fixed sign and a succeedent house which is not so bad, Venus would be in a fixed sign and they are all co-present with the North Node which Lilly deems is a sign of chastity if I interpreted it correctly. Still not particular keen on Saturn's reception of Mars (the 11th house ruler) but Mars was also fixed in Leo and in a nice square aspect with Saturn (Saturn doesn't like Mars). So, we could go either way saying there was just about equal evidence for honesty as much as dishonesty. The one thing that did catch my eye in the same horary was Moon's next aspect, a trine to Mercury (ruler of the 3rd) in Libra just a few degrees away which is an argument that the report was true.

This horary I posted above sums up my frustration. Whether to use the 1st or 7th (or 11th for friends, 4th for family, 10th for bosses, etc.), whether one indicator is stronger than the other (Moon in last face of Gemini in the 12th vs. Jupiter in Cancer on the Ascendant), whether Saturn being fixed trumps Venus placement right next to it, etc... And if I may get even more complicated for a moment, do we even USE the Moon since the horary is about a male? Do we use the Sun in place of the Moon? And so forth

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johannes susato wrote:
StellarTiggy wrote:So, in partnership questions where we seek to find out if the person is honest do we use the the 7th or the 1st?
As the honesty of the querent will be 'understood' (or is at least not questioned by himself probably), we would have to look at the 7th and its ruler, &c.

I am sure that this opinion is in full consent with Lilly's teachings.
With other persons being the quesited it is the same. i.e. their signifcator should be considered.

That Lilly should take the first instead seems too dubious - please give a quotation.

Questions in which honesty is doubted

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StellarTiggy wrote:
I think it does get really complicated if multiple people are considered in the interpretation. At that point, you might want to simplify the question to the person or people who matter most in the situation.
And I do - but again think about it like this - if *I* tell *you* something about person X, then you are in the situation either way.
Not quite.

I imagine having to listen to a mind numbing earful of, "My neighbour's cousin's friend's boyfriend's grandma's daughter said..." gossip, which is not only super annoying, but it just gets way too muddled to have to sort through. Its much ado about nothing. Why make it more complicated than it has to be? I mean, what relevance do I or others have in the situation? The only relevance that I can fathom is, hypothetically, if I am a mutual friend that is asked to give my objective perspective. However, once you take the question to a Horary astrologer, in the Horary interpretation itself, they will most likely deem interpreting me into the situation as unnecessary. The only instance that they may include thought of me into it is if I am the one that is suspected of interfering in your relationship. If not, what could you possibly ask about me, other than, "Whose side is she taking in our argument?", and at the end of the day, why does that even matter? When what you really want to determine is the outcome of the relationship between you and your partner.

As a friend, I think that my opinion should be of minimal-to-no influence about what happens in your relationship. If it trumps that of your partner's, you keep the friendship, but you sacrifice your relationship and that will be a prevailing pattern your entire life - Your friendships making or breaking the success of your relationships. Then we delve into interpreting your Natal, Composite or Synastry chart in conjunction with the Horary chart and we find that there is a placement or two which suggests that, say, you have an issue with the dynamic of one on one intimacy and maintaining a level of privacy, or something like that.
StellarTiggy wrote:
When we inquire about a particular person - The more dignity that their ruler garners, the more dignified they are in their conduct and this is further affirmed if the ruler is a benefic. If this individual's feelings for another person are in question, the reception and aspect between their rulers will give a clue about the interaction. If there is someone and they are being kept 'hidden' to our knowledge, their ruler will most likely appear combust or in the 12H and lack dignity
Fair enough, but do we use the essential dignity of the 1st house ruler as Lilly tells us, even if we are asking about the honesty of our partner or friend? And is it always so cut and dry that planets in the 12th indicate the party being lied about?
I think that essential dignity can be applicable to assessing the honesty of anyone. As for planets in the 12H, I think it depends on the context - Maybe you ask the question close to your birthday, they are planning on throwing you a surprise party and have to remain hidden in order to do so and thats what the Horary was showing you all along, but you only realize it until after the fact.
Case in point I can give you an example, many months ago I asked a horary about the honesty of my partner with relation to one of his friends. He told me he felt a certain way about the friend and I asked if what he had said was true. It was a Cancer Rising with Jupiter on the Ascendant (an argument for honesty), but the Moon (ruler of the 1st) was in the last face of Gemini the 12th (a huge argument for dishonesty). Lilly tells us that the woman's honesty is doubted with the Moon in the last face of Gemini and the Ascendant ruler, Moon, and Venus all being mutable or common signs and not in angular houses. However, let's use another approach. The question was about a significant other - we use the Ascendant ruler to signify me (I am the Moon in the 12th) and him to be Saturn in Scorpio in the 5th (his 11th - appropriate for the question of friendship) and he is also co-present with Venus in Scorpio and the North Node. He would clearly be in fixed sign and a succeedent house which is not so bad, Venus would be in a fixed sign and they are all co-present with the North Node which Lilly deems is a sign of chastity if I interpreted it correctly. Still not particular keen on Saturn's reception of Mars (the 11th house ruler) but Mars was also fixed in Leo and in a nice square aspect with Saturn (Saturn doesn't like Mars). So, we could go either way saying there was just about equal evidence for honesty as much as dishonesty. The one thing that did catch my eye in the same horary was Moon's next aspect, a trine to Mercury (ruler of the 3rd) in Libra just a few degrees away which is an argument that the report was true.

This horary I posted above sums up my frustration. Whether to use the 1st or 7th (or 11th for friends, 4th for family, 10th for bosses, etc.), whether one indicator is stronger than the other (Moon in last face of Gemini in the 12th vs. Jupiter in Cancer on the Ascendant), whether Saturn being fixed trumps Venus placement right next to it, etc... And if I may get even more complicated for a moment, do we even USE the Moon since the horary is about a male? Do we use the Sun in place of the Moon? And so forth

For illustration purposes and an ease to spatial intelligence, do you have still have the chart that you could post?

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Becca,

It isn't a question of what the friend thinks - it's what he thinks of the friend since the friend is a female. It's a question of romantic interest and this is why I believe it puts the querent, the friend, and the SO in the same question.

If I can find the chart I will definitely post it. Right now I have to go, but if you have some spare time I encourage you just to draw a chart on a piece of paper and you have all the placements - I've listed them all. Cancer Rising, Jupiter on the Ascendant, etc...

@Johannes: Will find the reference later and show you, no problem. Maybe I misunderstood but you'll be able to tell for yourself.

ST

Questions in which honesty is doubted

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Hi StellarTiggy,
StellarTiggy wrote:Becca,

It isn't a question of what the friend thinks - it's what he thinks of the friend since the friend is a female. It's a question of romantic interest and this is why I believe it puts the querent, the friend, and the SO in the same question.
This 'thinking' is probably a vice versa process. If you believe that he thinks something of the friend, then the friend must think something of him too. So who did you suspect of initiating the thinking? Him, or the friend?

Oh, the friend is the querent? I assumed that you were the querent and asking on behalf of the friend. If the friend is the querent, then they are symbolised by the 1H ruler. It gets a bit complicated from here because I don't know what ruler to use as symbolism for him. I hesitate to use the 7H ruler because this would mean that she perceives him as a romantic interest and disregards the fact that he is coupled with you. If we follow the latter idea, him being coupled with you, then we can interpret the 5H ruler - which, from my sole perception, I think is more apt, unless there is mutual romantic interest in their dynamic. For your sake, hopefully there isn't.
If I can find the chart I will definitely post it. Right now I have to go, but if you have some spare time I encourage you just to draw a chart on a piece of paper and you have all the placements - I've listed them all. Cancer Rising, Jupiter on the Ascendant, etc...
And I encourage you to post the chart. Otherwise, I will have to be convinced that this question is purely theoretical and that the chart you speak of does not exist?