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Planets within five degrees of next house cusp

 
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Planets within five degrees of next house cusp Reply with quote

This question was sparked by the discussion in the "Valens: equal house" thread. I created a new thread so as to not clog the discussion in the aforementioned thread.

Can someone point me to the passage in Ptolemy where he states that planets within five degrees of the next house cusp is considered to be in the next house?

I have a feeling that the reason why this technique was used was due to the uncertainty of the actual time of birth of the natives at that time. Ptolemy's approach to astrology was logical and naturalistic (according to what I've heard). It is unlikely that he would introduce a seemingly mystical technique if there is no good reason for it.

It is probably also for this reason that the whole sign approach still produces good results.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Larxene

It is Tetrabiblos III.10:
    In the first place we must consider those places ... in which the planet must be that is to receive the lordship of the prorogation; namely, the twelfth part of the zodiac surrounding the horoscope, from 5° above the actual horizon up to the 25° that remains, which is rising in succession to the horizon [ie., 1st house]; the part sextile dexter to these thirty degrees, called the House of the Good Daemon [11th house]; the part in quartile, the midheaven [10th house]; the part in trine, called the House of the God [9th house]; and the part opposite, the Occident [7th house].

We also find references in other works, such as Antiochus, Thesaurus, ch.46:
    Each of these 12 places obtains as its lot the 5 pre-ascended degrees and the 25 post-ascending degrees, if the squares [ie, the angles] should occur through ninety degrees. But if they should occur with different numbers of degrees, divide the degrees of the square numbers equally into three parts, and you would know how many degrees each place of the zodiac has.
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Larxene



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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Deb.
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Larxene



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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pulled out my copy of the text:

"In the first place we must consider those places prorogative in which by all means the planet must be that is to receive the lordship of the prorogation; namely, the twelfth part of the zodiac surrounding the horoscope..."

1. What does "prorogative" mean in this context?
2. What does it mean "to receive the lordship of the prorogation"?
3. The twelfth part of the zodiac I assume refers to the twelfth house/sign?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
1. What does "prorogative" mean in this context?
2. What does it mean "to receive the lordship of the prorogation"?
3. The twelfth part of the zodiac I assume refers to the twelfth house/sign?

No, 'the twelfth part surrounding the horoscope' means 'the thirty degrees surrounding the ascendant'. 'Prorogative' and 'prorogation' is Robbins's way of translating aphetikos and aphesis, that is, hylegiacal and direction [of the hyleg]. The planet 'receiving lordship of the prorogation' is the planet fit to be hyleg.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Larxene,
In case it is helpful, I gave a discussion of that passage in my book on the houses and that particular chapter is available on Google preview at
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=msIch6wq-38C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA109#v=onepage&q&f=false

The pages around 113-118 are particularly relevant.

To expand a little on what Martin has explained, I am copying some notes I made a while back following some friendly correspondence I had with Martin abut the meaning of the term prorogator (which derives from the Latin prô-rogo, which means 'to extend forward or continue').

In the traditional terminology of primary directions, a prorogative (also called a prorogator) is a planet or point that is 'extended' in the sense of being 'sent out' by direction. It is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word aphetês (in the Robbins's translation of Ptolemy, the words prorogation, prorogator and prorogative are used to translate the original Greek words aphesis, aphetês and aphetikos). Hellenistic astrologers translate the term aphesis to mean a 'sending out' or 'release'. The term 'direction' is one Latin equivalent of this (from directio, 'aiming at, sending out towards') and 'prorogation' is another (i.e., a prorogation is a primary direction). Note for example, what Ptolemy's text says where he describes how life events are predicted by the use of primary directions:
    We shall apply the prorogation [i.e., direction] from the horoscope to events relating to the body and to journeys abroad; that from the Lot of Fortune to matters of property; that from the Moon to affections of the soul and to marriage; that from the Sun to dignities and glory; that from the mid-heaven to the other details of the conduct of life, such as actions, friendships and the begetting of children. Tetrabiblos, IV.10 (Loeb, p.449).

The prorogative places might refer to the places they are moved to, or the houses they must be placed within in order to be valid significators. So when Ptolemy identifies the four "regions of greatest authority" (remember, this is specifically in regard to the calculation of length of life), he tells us to first consider the prorogative places in which these bodies must be placed. He goes on to say:
    After this again we must take as prorogatives the four regions of greatest authority, sun, moon, horoscope [ascendant], the Lot of Fortune, and the rulers of these regions.

The ascendant as a prorogative place therefore means the whole of the 1st house whereas the ascendant as a prorogative (or prorogator) would refer only to the degree of the ascendant.

Hope that helps to make more sense of the terminology used in that quote.

The question is,. where does the power of this place begin and end? According to Ptolemy's instruction here it begins 5° above the ascendant and continues for the 25° that remain in any equal division of the chart into 12 parts.
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in essence, something like:

"A planet must be in one of these places in order to be fit to be the hyleg, namely the 5 degrees above the ascendant degree until the 25 degrees below the ascendant degree..."

Thank you once again, Deb and Martin.
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