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Where are the procedures for circumambulation?

 
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312

Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Where are the procedures for circumambulation? Reply with quote

Curtis Manwaring's website cites Dorotheus and Ptolemy as the main sources for this technique. Can someone tell me the Book and Chapter in both sources where this technique was found?

Thanks!
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Where are the procedures for circumambulation? Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
Curtis Manwaring's website cites Dorotheus and Ptolemy as the main sources for this technique. Can someone tell me the Book and Chapter in both sources where this technique was found?

I don't recall Ptolemy using the word περίπατος (which is the word sometimes translated as 'circumambulation') at all in this context. He prefers ἄφεσις (sending out, directing), which is discussed in Tetrabiblos III.10 or III.11 depending on which edition you're using.

Ptolemy's method is the one that later became known as primary direction, which is more mathematically sophisticated (and truer to natural motion) than the common method of using only rising times (that is, an approximation of oblique ascension), which he rejects. Dorotheus probably used this latter method, although, as he mainly directs the ascendant (which even Ptolemy would direct by oblique ascension), it is hard to be absolutely sure. Dorotheus describes his methods in the beginning of book III.
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Ptolemy also describes (very briefly) how to interpret circumambulations / distributions / directing at the end of Book IV, in his predictive chapter.

One difference between Ptolemy and others who use this method is that he treats the planets whose bodies and aspects are hit by the directed point as the primary time lords, and the bound/term lords as secondary. Others (I believe Dorotheus, but especially the Persians) do it the other way around, with the bound lords being primary and the other aspects/bodies encountered, being secondary.

Best,
Ben Dykes
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312

Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Martin and Ben.

I am aware of the differences between the two, I just do not know what it means to 'direct a point'. For example, if we are directing the Ascendant, and it is in 5 degrees Aries...then what? If we use the Persians' version, does that mean that Jupiter will be the first general time lord, then Venus, then Mercury, then Mars, etc?

Note that I am using the Egyptian terms in this example.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
I am aware of the differences between the two, I just do not know what it means to 'direct a point'. For example, if we are directing the Ascendant, and it is in 5 degrees Aries...then what? If we use the Persians' version, does that mean that Jupiter will be the first general time lord, then Venus, then Mercury, then Mars, etc?

Yes, that's right (but the planets and aspects falling in the terms are still very important).

It may help to view directions as a two-step process. The first step requires no real mathematics: you just take the significator you're interested in and move it symbolically around the zodiac (generally in the order of the signs, though converse directions are possible as well), keeping everything else fixed and noting the terms the significator passes through and the planets and aspects it encounters. (The ruler of the terms is called divisor, the planets and their aspects are called promissors. Ben translates divisor as 'distributor'.)

The second step is finding out when a particular period begins and ends (if we're talking about directions through the terms), or when a particular aspect is perfected. That requires spherical trigonometry and takes a bit of time to do by hand.
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Ben



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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an audio workshop on this method of divisions/distributions through the bounds or terms (http://www.bendykes.com/audio/astrologylectures.php), while Martin has an excellent course on primary directions proper (http://martingansten.com/).
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the books should be in Kindle store.That way, there is instant availability no postage and packing charges and ability to read on four devices or on different platforms.

PD
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312

Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@panka: ...And also no risk of items being lost in mail, like the Mathesis I bought before this. Sad


@Martin and Ben:

Thanks. It does sound complicated to calculate the time period. I can only do up to 12th grade trigonometry and even then I need to refresh Lala Happy

It would be great to have a visual demonstration of the technique instead of blocks of text. I'll see whether I can save enough money for the material. Right now I am tempted by Ben's series on the Platonic Forms.
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