Display posts from previous
Sort by

16 by Martin Gansten
Mark wrote:Perhaps you could explicitly define what you mean by the term 'modern' in the context of Indian astrological practice? I am not entirely clear what the term means in this frame of reference.
I would say from the latter half of the 19th century, when Indian astrology began to be practised by new groups of people (influenced by English Theosophists). If I may quote my own article on 'Modern Astrologers' (Brill's Encyclopedia of Hinduism):
The modernization of western astrology led by Alan Leo explicitly strove to transform the ancient art from mere ?fortune-telling? ? punishable under British law ? into a vehicle of esoteric spiritual symbolism; a further step, from esotericism towards depth psychology, was taken by the next generation, notably by the American Theosophist Dane Rudhyar (1895 ? 1985). The Indian modernizers, by contrast, were happy for astrology to retain its customary predictive and prescriptive functions; the modernization process here related chiefly to shifts in the medium and intended audience of astrological instruction ? from traditional oral teaching within particular hereditary groups, based on Sanskrit sources, to the use of widely available printed manuals in English and the Indian vernaculars ? and, to some extent, to technical innovations.
The practice of displaying the varga placements of the planets in separate charts is, I believe, older than the practice of reading those charts separately.
Michael Sternbach wrote:Really interesting! So the Yavanaj?taka attaches this kind of images to all the horas... In ancient times, were these used for general interpretation of the natal chart (as opposed to the more specialized applications of the horas in later times)? Or for what purposes?

Is anything known about the origin of these images?

Was this type of iconography also in use for other zodiacal subdivisions (apart from the horas and, as far as I know, the decans/drekkana)?
I believe it's mainly these two, though I seem to recall some iconographical descriptions of the nav???as as well; and the ?a??ya??as are given specific names that could be called iconographical ('carrying a staff', etc). There is an old article by Pingree, 'The Indian Iconography of the Decans and Hor?s', in the Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, Vol. 26, No. 3/4 (1963), pp. 223-254.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

17 by Mark
Martin Gansten wrote:
The practice of displaying the varga placements of the planets in separate charts is, I believe, older than the practice of reading those charts separately.
Can I ask you to expand on this point please? By suggesting varga charts are a 'modern practice' are you simply discussing their use for separate delineation in distinct charts rather than the practice of actually using them as a support to interpretation of the ASC chart?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

18 by Michael Sternbach
Hello,

I'm still hoping that Curtis, Deb or somebody else versed in Valen's astrology would shed some light on the issue of the winds and the steps. How, exactly, were these calculated and interpreted?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can help.
Michael

19 by Martin Gansten
Mark wrote:Can I ask you to expand on this point please? By suggesting varga charts are a 'modern practice' are you simply discussing their use for separate delineation in distinct charts rather than the practice of actually using them as a support to interpretation of the ASC chart?
I feel a bit guilty about hijacking Michael's thread; that wasn't my intention. Briefly, as I understand the use of vargas in traditional Indian texts, they qualify the way a planet works in the horoscope; they are not meant to make up separate horoscopes complete with their own house placements, aspects, etc. I believe that the practice of drawing separate varga diagrams (for most vargas -- some, like the hor? or tri?????a, had no such diagrams because the divisions were not related to zodiacal signs) probably began as a simple way of representing the varga placements of all planets at once; and that the presence of such diagrams led to the practice of reading them as separate, derived horoscopes.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

20 by zoidsoft
Michael Sternbach wrote:Hello,

I'm still hoping that Curtis, Deb or somebody else versed in Valen's astrology would shed some light on the issue of the winds and the steps. How, exactly, were these calculated and interpreted?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can help.
Michael
Please see the Riley translation of Valens online, page 178:

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vet ... entire.pdf

There is at least one important difference between the Riley translation and Schmidt's. Riley translation says that:
"If any have the same wind as the apheta that they will be related and associated, especially in their own chronocratorships".
It is not very clear what that means taken by itself, but Schmidt spoke at length about the "nautical metaphor" and how the winds tied in with eminence considerations, the trigon lords as managers of the wind, etc. The Schmidt translation has this instead:
"For if some stars should be running with the same wind as the apheta, they will be congenial and sympathetic and especially in their own times".


The Schmidt translation makes it more clear that planets running in the opposite wind "rock the boat" so to speak and that is why such planets are considered malefic to the apheta.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

21 by Mark
Zoidsoft wrote:
Please see the Riley translation of Valens online, page 178:
Hi Curtis,

The Riley translation only appears to be 172 pages long. :-?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

24 by Michael Sternbach
Hi Curtis,

thanks a lot for your help!

But quite frankly, I'm still not getting how exactly Valens calculated what step a particular planet falls into.

It's important for me to get this right for reasons of research.

If it's not too much to ask, could you give me a step-by-step example using a modern chart?

Very best regards
Michael

25 by Mark
Hello Michael,

This might be completely irrelevant and way off the mark in answering your question but regarding 24 sectors around the zodiac I wonder if this might originally go back to Mesopotamian rising and setting non-zodiacal constellations similar to the decans?

I came across a section in an ancient historical text describing Chaldean astrology which got me curious. In particular Diodorus Siculus (90BCE-30BCE) in his Bibliotheca Historica. Regarding Chaldean astral beliefs he states:
Beyond the circle of the zodiac they designate twenty-four other stars, of which one half, they say, are situated in the northern parts and one half in the southern, and of these those which are visible they assign to the world of the living, allow those which are invisible they regard as being adjacent to the dead, and so they call them "Judges of the Universe''.
Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

26 by james_m
very quick comment - planetary hours.. i don't know if there is a connection, but 24 sectors reminds me of 24 hours.. how was that integrated in the distant past? when did someone come up with the concept of an hour? it might have some connection or not.

27 by Mark
James_M wrote:
very quick comment - planetary hours.. i don't know if there is a connection, but 24 sectors reminds me of 24 hours.. how was that integrated in the distant past? when did someone come up with the concept of an hour? it might have some connection or not.
Yes. This kind of connection was already discussed earlier in the thread.

I had been wondering about the origin of planetary hour rulers and an association with the rising time of certain constellations at night. That would fit the idea that half the constellations were invisible. Alternatively, this might refer to the heliacal rising of certain constellations spread over the year. This might have centred on certain bright stars rather than full constellations.

Either explanation would be somewhat similar to the 36 Egyptian decans. But I haven't heard of Mesopotamian astrology utilising such a concept. Still, I am not really knowledgeable enough on the topic to reach any conclusions on this. Probably best to hold off on any further wild speculation until some reliable sources can be checked out.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
!! Read first: forum policies
Recent topics
Post Reply

Return to “Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques”