Distincting between murder, suicide or accident--- early asc

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Hi everyone, long time since I posted but thanks for being here Deb and thanks for all the contributions... this site has definitely been an amazing learning tool through the years!

I'm just going to try and make sure my charts work here before diving into discussion.


CHART 1 - HORARY - Was KEN M Murdered or.. ?
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CHART 2- Nativity chart of KEN M. with progressions to Jan 3, 2014- date of death.
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Wow, great!! That was easy to post pics-- good directions:)

Okay so here some details of situation and problems I'm in need of help to understand.

1. "Ken" is my ex-boyfriend (lived, worked, gained custody of child together) Definitely a past 7th house relationship-- more than lover for sure. We've been apart for years due to his alcoholism.
2. He is definitely alcoholic and had been working on sobriety going to detox and 12 step program and achieving 1.5 years! As an illiterate carpenter he also started school again. 9th house activities were very active.
3. He was in a work related accident on September 13, 2013 which greatly affected his life and he did begin taking pain killers but appears that he was taking them properly (not over dosing)
4. He reached out to everyone he loved over Christmas time and most brushed him off for one reason or another
5. New years eve- drinking and kicked out of son's house.

6. January 1, an unknown man rents a hotel for a week. A couple (man and woman stay the night and leave the next day).. January 3, 2014 3:40 or 3:47 pm a man ESCORTS ken to the room- he's standing and walking straight, appears okay but never comes out of the room alive.

7. January 7, 2014 the room is no longer rented and Kens body is found dead. 26% alcohol, cocaine and heroin in only 1 needle mark of his arm.


This man is an alcoholic, not a drug addict. The investigation is open. The true nature of the question really is --- HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? Suicide, He set it up to try drugs for the first time and oops, or was he strategically set up and murdered?


MY ISSUES WITH READING:- Any theories could help.
1. The early ascendant- I drew up this chart the first evening I spent with his middle son after his death. The "story" has changed a bit here and there. We don't really know if there are 2 or 3 separate other people. Right now I'm taking it as there is more information to come but I cannot believe that a chart so sensitive and important to me has such an early asc.? Not even sure if I should move on to read more?

2. Other parts of the chart that show it is applicable are -
- Significator mars in 12th libra
- Mars is square Sun-Moon-Venus-Jupiter
ruler of 7 (enemies), 12th (self undoing,alone), 8th (death) are all represented by Venus in the 3rd

With these I'm prone to say that the his intentions mars in libra 12th house are different than the intentions of the death/enemy in Capricorn. I feel that this shows the deceased as being focussed on "getting laid" so to speak but the "partner or enemy" is having sex for "Work". It also shows me that Mars (the deceased) shares venus as a dipositor but Venus is under the dipositor Saturn at 21 scorpio in first house---- not a good Saturn placement but again-- the guy is dead so how can any of it be good?

2. With the ruler of 7th retrograde conjunct sun in 3rd house I am leaning to believing that the "enemy" was known to Ken through the turned 9th house (either from AA groups (church) or from college.) Being retrograde leads me to thinking that the person/s are moving away from the "sober" Philosophy.

3. As far as the moons course-- I don't need to know what WILL happen, I need to know what did happen> so Im lost as to its importance in this question --- any articles on that?

So there it is-- I hope some of you can help me see what Im missing or help me put a better perspective.

3. Note that the 8th house is conjunct ALGOL- Seriously malefic and attached to both ideas of escaping through alcohol... but also shows me a connection with losing ones head- pain killers and self destruction???

Thanks again all

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Hi, borealis!

I am very sorry for your loss and I'm sad to hear about this tragic end.
I have only briefly examined the Horary chart (progressions would require a much more thorough approach preceded by a natal chart delineation) but, i wanted to share a few impressions with you.

1. The early ascendant...
Any one is free to disagree with me here :) but, personally, I would neither consider this Ascendant very early or this chart non-radical.
Firstly, the Ascendant is occupying the 3rd degree of the sign, when the cusp falls near the critical point but not very far away from it, I am very reluctant to toss away the chart. There is surely a good reason why the Ascendant is early but, in my opinion, there is also a reason why it is not on 0?of the sign. Like I said, that is my opinion but, in reality, i have had successful delineations of charts with Ascendants near the 3rd degree (I couldn't say the same thing about the charts with the Ascendant near the 27th degree, 'tho).
What I do in such situations is check the readability of the chart in general and the shape of the Querent's and the Quesited's ruler.
After reading your intro post and seeing the shape of the L7 (assigned to the Quesited), to me, everything seems to fit. But, again, that is just my impression.

Over the past few years I have delineated a few Horary charts and Solar return cast for questions asked mainly by family members of person's who were, at the time, struggling with different types of additions and psychological problems (that, most cases, evolved into prescription drugs abuse). Strong (conjunction) or stressful (square, opposition) of the conjoined Moon/Jupiter with the ruler were very common in those charts.
This is a very specific situation since both the Moon and Jupiter are highly dignified (although cadent) but, we do know the outcome and, surely, a very tragic thing has happened regardless of the shape of these two planets.
L7 is Venus (closely associated with drinking), cadent and peregrine, combust (great danger, devastating influence), inside the 3rd (a hotel room). from there, it is receiving the opposition of tje Jupiter/Moon cojunction - it is attacked and in the place of the fall and detriment of the other two planets. This opposition of a peregrine, badly damaged Venus actually looks a lot like a good candidate for a representative of a damaging, life-threatening drug-abuse episode. More so because the planets are additionally connected by squares of a 12th house Mars.
Strong Moon in cancer suggests excess amounts of liquids whilst Jupiter tends to exaggerate. Especially when retrograde.
The negative influence of the Sun, the ruler of the derived 4th is also supportive of the heart-breaking situations that the Quesited had to go through with his family members.

So, my impression is that, whilst the degree of the Ascendant surely needs to be well examined, the chart itself, looks quite descriptive of the situation.
ruler of 7 (enemies), 12th (self undoing,alone), 8th (death) are all represented by Venus in the 3rd
More additional testimonies, I agree.

Cheers,

aglaya

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borealis wrote:ruler of 7 (enemies), 12th (self undoing,alone), 8th (death) are all represented by Venus in the 3rd
Hello Borealis,

as you have a relation to the quesited, you should turn the chart and make the 7th the ascendant of the quesited.

Then, following Lilly, you could take the houses as you do, but should not forget to take the turned houses too (and this perhaps in the first place), as Lilly teaches (Lilly, CA, p. 192).

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Here is the quotation (Lilly, CA, p. 192):

"If one aske of a Servant, the sixt House is his first House or
Ascendant; the seventh his second or House of Substance, and
so orderly as is before specified: and you must understand that
although every House hath his sixt, eight House and twelfth
House, yet in every one quesited after, the sixt House of the fi-
gure shall signifie his infirmity, the eight his death, the twelfth
his imprisonment; onely you must know how to vary your
Rules, wherein principally consists the Master-peece of the
Art."

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Hi,

I wouldn't judge this chart. I'm sorry about this news, but in my honest opinion it is not "judge worthy" because firstly, the Ascendant is early, secondly, Saturn rises (I use whole signs). Saturn in the 1st or 7th ruins the matter or makes it untrustworthy. I would definitely re-ask this question when more information comes up from the investigation. At that time you should get a clearer answer, and this corresponds to the early Ascendant indicating the matter is premature and some events are still to occur.

Good luck! :'

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borealis wrote:6. January 1, an unknown man rents a hotel for a week. A couple (man and woman stay the night and leave the next day).. January 3, 2014 3:40 or 3:47 pm a man ESCORTS ken to the room- he's standing and walking straight, appears okay but never comes out of the room alive.
This would certainly be very interesting, James, and the time you are looking for is already known! See above, please.

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There is a default option in this query. The main and only legal question is 'Is he murdered?. If he is Not. Well thats it. No further forensic.

Murder is an event of most probably violent nature at the hands of a living being. We need to have an event. For an event, we need an aspect. A past aspect. No past aspect, no event.

If we take the victim as represented by Lord 7th, Venus has no past aspect with any planet. In my experience, separating conjunction from Sun does not tell about any past event at the hands of perpetrator of crime.

If we take the victim as represented by Mars (L1), it has one separating aspect (square) from Jupiter. Which shows that Yes he was murdered. By the nature of a person represented by Jupiter in Cancer Retrograde which is.

Some one belonging from a law enforcing agency who supports crime.

Or

Some one who is from teaching profession

Or

Some one who is lawyer but takes bribes from opposing parties in legal/court cases

Or

Some one who is a Priest (but of dubious character)


Jupiter in Cancer in 9th house. Belongs from a different cultural ethnicity.
Jupiter conjunct Moon. Sensitive
Jupiter square Mars. Sadist or face has some mark/bruise
Jupiter Opposite Venus. Hates Women.
Jupiter Opposite Sun. Has disagreements with Law/Authority/Father.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

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Geesh, I keep taking to long to post and lose it all:(

Thank you so much for all your views and understandings very helpful to bounce around an idea. I actually was using the 1st house to represent the victim, not myself.

The reason is this: I have a habit of deciding house ruler ships prior to drawing the question, while I'm contemplating the question. First house was chosen over seventh because
1. This exact question is being asked by MANY others not just me. (Cops, Mother, Sisters, Children) I formulated the time on prompt of myself and his son and his boss.
2. I have a ton of things going on in my life not to be confused with this question.
3. I have no participation in the question, I could perhaps be considered the

On the other hand, this man and I have always had tragically intertwined lives and now I'm seriously reviewing the 1st - 7th options.

http://magnumopusastrology.com/missing- ... enth-house


I'm starting to see though that an event chart may be the most suitable.

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Hi, again, borealis!
I actually was using the 1st house to represent the victim, not myself.
This is your chart and, by taking the position of the official astrologer, you become the only astrologer who can deliver the final answer. For this reason, the decision on how to approach the chart is yours only. The rest of us can only share our ideas and impressions which aren't necessarily advising you to change your approach. Like I said, at the end of the day, it is you who will have to make the final call.

Now, whilst I highly support the approach in which the astrologer assigns the houses in advance and prepares for a chart delineation before he even casts the chart, I also think that the astrological symbolism always needs to be checked once the chart is cast because sometimes, no matter how well prepared, the astrologer finds himself in a situation where the chart is openly suggesting a different approach. So, in my opinion, it is always good to double-check the shape of the main significators and see as to how well they describe the situation. When the Question includes a person occupied in anything "radical" (dangerous activities, very stressful events, addictions, criminal, captivities etc.), their ruler is usually easier to detect as it is either stress fully aspected or otherwise descriptive of the shape of the person and his current activities.

Assigining the Ascendant to another party in charts cast cast for the questions posted by the astrologers appears to be a burning topic here lately so, thank you for sharing the link to the lovely article written by Mr.Magnus as it spares us browsing Lilly's Christian astrology and nailing down the right quotes.

As mentioned in the article (And,a s obvious from both Lilly's advices and example charts), assigning the houses properly in charts cast for missing persons can be quite tricky but it is of the utmost importance.
The Ascendant is, indeed, usually assigned to the missing person however, most astrologers would also insist on the time of the event or the time when the person was first noticed missing. That way, we get a chart that describes the moment of an event that had a strong impact onto the person captured by the Question and whoever asked the Question, gets the "opportunity" to withdraw from the picture allowing the astrologer to focus onto the Quesited and the events.
However, when that is not the case and, when another party asks the question, the moment of the question inevitably includes that other party and it is very important to make sure that the other party can actually be excluded from the picture.

As I already said, the choice is yours but, for the sake of discussion, I will share my view and say that I would be more inclined to use the sistem of derived houses and assign the Ascendant to the person who asked the Question. The 7th house, due to the nature of their past relationship, would go to the Querent (in this case- you).
Here's why:
1. This exact question is being asked by MANY others not just me. (Cops, Mother, Sisters, Children) I formulated the time on prompt of myself and his son and his boss.
However, it is only you who is searching for the answer in a Horary chart. more importantly, the cops are searching for the answer because it is their duty and they will not use the answers hidden in a Horary chart in the process of investigation; rather, they will continue questioning the suspects/witnesses and collecting physical evidences. In other words, they are interested in finding out the answers but not answers to horary questions. In addition, their motives are different than yours. His son, sisters and mother, although equally interested in finding out the truth are, again, not asking a Horary question. Imagine someone asking a question about a current boyfriend who is taking drugs - he also has a mother and potentially a son but, since it is his current girlfriend who is asking the question, we give her the Ascendant, assign the 7th to him and, if necessary, check the connection with other family members through the influence of derived houses.
If the question were asked by a groutp of completely neutral citizens worried about the level of safety in their county and if they had a reasonable time then, obviously, assigning the Ascendant to the missing person (victim) would be a good option. In this case, however, I would probably dismiss it.

2. I have a ton of things going on in my life not to be confused with this question.
I'm not sure I understand this correctly but, if you fear that you might mistake the evidences that refer to the victim (your ex boyfriend) with other activities/person ruled by the same house, I'd say that you simply need to focus onto the Question. The 7th house issues go beyond just personal relationships - a married woman (who's husband is rules by the 7th) can ask a question about an ongoing court trial, in which case, we would assign that same 7th to her opponent and examine her chances of winning the case. Unless the husband is somehow involved, we have to use the house that naturally rules the other person (we only have 12 houses :) ).
3. I have no participation in the question,
You didn't participate in the event but you did participate in his life and that is exactly what made you ask this question. Your interest and worries are stemming from your deep involvement in his life and from a profound relationship that you had with this man.
More importantly, the 7th house is not a potential choice only because your past relationship is described by the 1st/7th axis - it is also the house of "the other party" of any kind and, when a Querent asks a question about another party, we assign the house that lies right across the Ascendant to that person.

I hope this makes sense. However, if you're unsure, you might want to try to find the exact time of the event and see what the chart cast for it has got to say!

Cheers and best of luck,

aglaya

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Thanks Aglaya,

borealis:
. I have a ton of things going on in my life not to be confused with this question.

Aglaya:
I'm not sure I understand this correctly but, if you fear that you might mistake the evidences that refer to the victim (your ex boyfriend) with other activities/person ruled by the same house, I'd say that you simply need to focus onto the Question.
borealis: My current boyfriend did attempt suicide on January 3rd, and again several times since. I do not want to confuse the horary question of murder vs suicide but its difficult not too if I am a part of the question.

This has become to me a pertinant example of sticking to techniques and basic principle to achieve a judgement. I will not be judging this chart for several reasons.

1. I agree to double check the situation. The very idea that the double checking may change my original significators is to me a warning to not judge. I have learned through experience that changing significations is a dangerous habit for myself--- not sure if this is backed up in any texts? Just something Ive done.

2. When I drew the chart: I was not concerned with the saturn rising as an astrologer- Now its something i cannot ignore. Also, with Mars in the dark 12th house afflicted it is just not a good idea for me to think I could get judgement from this.

3. The early asc had always gven me hesitation as well so If I never judged an early ascendant before, why would I start now??
The reason I originally tried to read regardless of early ascendant is because I felt I was sincere and genuine.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_questions.html
Bonatus' second consideration.......
In his view, barring those occasions when the question is prompted by a sudden matter of great urgency, the querent ought to have tossed and turned over the matter for at least 24 hours before putting it to an astrologer. We can presume he would expect the querent to make all possible attempts to resolve the problem in this time, resorting to astrology only when such a committed attempt fails to ease the disturbance of the mind and spirit.
Really, I asked the question too soon, I was in turmoil and shock and I had a number of berevment duties, funeral, family and helping his son complete the duties of his estate. Its been over a month since I asked this question and in the end its easy to say that this chart is too early to read as both Bonatus' Lilly and an ---early asc.-- Saturn rising --Querent in the dark afflicted says.

Im still open to any discussion or questions or comments but will be posting the event chart separately. Thanks for everything.