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bonattis 'mundane astrology'

1 by james_m
it seems bonatti read a lot of abu mashar..
perhaps i am slow, but if someone can explain what is implied by a statement such as 'receives the disposition of' which is scattered throughout bonattis comments, i would appreciate it.. let me use an example.. "saturn receiving the disposition of mars" ... is this when mars falls in saturns signs? that is what i am thinking but i don't understand the phrase 'receives the disposition of'.. thanks

3 by james_m
that is a good guess yuki. thanks. i am not sure.. 'disposition' - that is essentially another word for 'nature' i think, so the planets disposition would be the planets nature.. it does sound like some sort of reception concept that is written so much that it might imply the various methods of reception that are possible.. thanks. maybe someone else has an idea.

Re: bonattis 'mundane astrology'

4 by margherita
james_m wrote:it seems bonatti read a lot of abu mashar..
perhaps i am slow, but if someone can explain what is implied by a statement such as 'receives the disposition of' which is scattered throughout bonattis comments, i would appreciate it.. let me use an example.. "saturn receiving the disposition of mars" ... is this when mars falls in saturns signs? that is what i am thinking but i don't understand the phrase 'receives the disposition of'.. thanks
I don't remember in Bonatti but a disposition is an aspect. I checked a week ago because I'm reading the Arab comment to Centiloquium and I found the word, so I checked in Dykes' translation of Albumasar/Alcabitius

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

6 by james_m
thank you margherita and wolfgang!

it makes sense disposition means 'aspect'. receiving the disposition of a planet also seems to imply the one giving the disposition is in a sign or house position that gives it the ability to express itself properly.. mars in libra would not be capable of pushing it's disposition unless it was to venus or saturn perhaps, but perhaps i am mistaken in thinking this..it is how i read it. that they are in ptolemaic aspect with each other is not enough. there has to be a relationship with the planets and signs to make this work.

wolfgang - thanks for the little blurb on 'pushing nature' with the suggestion to look at ITA 111.15. i have read over these sections in dykes ITA translation a few times and now note aside from the comment "'The categories of "pushing" are among the odder in medieval astrology, and unfortunately references to them virtually died out in the Latin tradition after the first wave of 12th Century translations." there is the footnote 103 which goes with it - "103 Exceptions would be the occasional comment about "committing disposition" (ie pushing management) in authors such as Bonatti and Lilly, but neither author seems to have a fixed sense of what these types of pushing mean."

thanks to everyone for the assistance on this. i enjoy reading bonatti, but a few commonly repeated phrases are hard to properly understand.

7 by margherita
james_m wrote:thank you margherita and wolfgang!

it makes sense disposition means 'aspect'. receiving the disposition of a planet also seems to imply the one giving the disposition is in a sign or house position that gives it the ability to express itself properly.. mars in libra would not be capable of pushing it's disposition unless it was to venus or saturn perhaps, but perhaps i am mistaken in thinking this..it is how i read it. that they are in ptolemaic aspect with each other is not enough. there has to be a relationship with the planets and signs to make this work.
As told above I recently searched it for myself. Disposition works with peregrine planets, no need of receptions. The example Dykes gives in ITA III.18 is Moon in Virgo pushes disposition to Mars in Sagittarius.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

8 by john
Hi

I believe Dykes has a section on Committing Strength, Nature and Disposition in Part 9 of the Introduction contained in the Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, which may also assist.

9 by Yukionna
I reread the chapter in ITA, and it seems disposition is only mentioned in relation to an aspect without dignity involved, aka 'pushing management'. Dispositio or disposition is translated as arrangement, not as nature. Interesting. This would mean however that it's not about just any aspect. Only this particular kind. In the chapters on pushing nature and pushing power there's no mentioning of disposition.

10 by james_m
thank you margherita, john and yuki.

i will examine ita sections again and see if i can get a better grasp of this.

john - i don't have that book, but i might get it at some point. thanks!

11 by irisalbus
Hello all,
john wrote:
I believe Dykes has a section on Committing Strength, Nature and Disposition in Part 9 of the Introduction contained in the Works of Sahl and Masha'allah, which may also assist.


In the chapter mentioned by John, Ben Dykes explains clearly and in detail that the opinions of the astrologers examined (Sahl, Masha'allah and Bonatti) or their ways of usage of the concept of "pushing disposition/arrangment" is not completely concordant, but basically it should mean that "a planet joins another planet, pure and simple" (where "join" means being in aspect).


Iris

12 by james_m
thanks iris,

a key book to have and study is ITA which has a lot of information on the various topics that have a lot of nuances to them. thanks for sharing this passage. cheers james
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