16
Hi, Johannes!
Don't you forget here to consider that the querent IS the astrologer, Aglaya?
I said that I would think twice before excluding myself from the question but, I may also have to add that I haven't done it so far. However, the Astrologer in this case decided to give that option a go.
Lilly allows us to approach the chart in such a manner when we're casting charts for missing persons:
If a question be demanded of one absent in a general way, and the querent has no relation to the party; then the first house, the Lord of the House and the Moon shall signify the absent party? (CA 151).
In this case, there is a certain (although complicated) connection between the Astrologer and the person inquired upon which is why I would certainly turn the chart and see what it has got to say. The 9th would be my first choice.

In reality, the Astrologer decided to try to use the radical houses and assign the Ascendant to the victim.

Cheers,

aglaya

17
Having studied astrology for many years, I understand the considerations and don't ignore them. I check to see if it has any validity and if I determine it does not, I will read the chart.

To tell the truth, agalya, I give both Asc. ruler and turned chart ruler to the person in question. I believe the radical ruler tells you about the health of the individual as does the turned chart ruler, if you are an astrologer asking the question. Just as the radical 8th and the turned 8th house will tell you about the person's death issues. They both have to be studied in regards to the individual.

Now if I wanted to know about Sue's son, I would only use the turned chart to determine his ruler.

Maybe I'm taking liberties here that I shouldn't but it's what makes sense to me. Seems I learned it along the years but if people feel that this is incorrect and I must have been confused along the way, I'll change the practice.

18
kali wrote:Maybe I'm taking liberties here that I shouldn't but it's what makes sense to me. Seems I learned it along the years but if people feel that this is incorrect and I must have been confused along the way, I'll change the practice.
I don't think that you are confused, but it looks like you have found the way Lilly already went very successfully, even though the most won't be inclined to understand this.

19
kali wrote: Maybe I'm taking liberties here that I shouldn't but it's what makes sense to me. Seems I learned it along the years but if people feel that this is incorrect and I must have been confused along the way, I'll change the practice.
The only relevant reason for tossing away a rule or approaching a chart in a slightly different manner (as long as the new approach makes sense) is non-effectiveness. Whether another astrologer finds your approach peculiar or not is really not all that important as long as you get the right results.
When I say this I don't suggest that the rules should be endlessly changed or that Horary astrology needs to be re-invented, that's for sure. however, Horary (or any other branch of Astrology) is not simple math- a satisfying and meaningful result can only be obtained through a good synthesis. And, there is no simple formula when it comes to putting the evidences and testimonies into a compact picture. As it has been mentioned multiple times here - Horary charts include the Astrologer and, in case the Astrologer is making a mistake, the chart has its ways of letting him know that he is potentially entering the dangerous zone (considerations against judgement). Likewise, the astrologer sometimes decides to follow his own hunches when he thinks that he has enough reasons for that. We can rely upon the judgement of an experienced Astrologer to know when that time is. After all, the chart includes him and he should be able to establish communication with it.

Having studied astrology for many years, I understand the considerations and don't ignore them. I check to see if it has any validity and if I determine it does not, I will read the chart
That is basically the safest approach. Every Horary astrologer finds himself ina situation when he isn't sure whether the Querent should be assigned a specific house or the natural ruler. In such cases, we let the chart talk and see if it confirms our initial impulse.
Following the rules is not always that simple - there are many rules. For what it's worth, there are other traditional authorities besides Lilly. However, even if we decide to follow the method established and explained by a certain authority, we still need to keep our mind active. Deviating from a set of rules when we think it is necessary is far less dangerous that deviating from the basics applicable to all branches of Astrology. And, astrological symbolism is certainly something that belongs to the basics. If we decide to go for a specific house because we are advised to do so by a certain traditional author and then notice that another planet is openly suggesting that we should use her, it might be time for a double-check; one thing that we should never sacrifice is the connection between the chart and reality. Taking your chart as an example- you could have assigned Jupiter to the victimise person however, what you already know is that the victim is in a very bad shape and recently attacked. If you see that Jupiter does not describe your person well enough, then Jupiter might not be the best candidate for the ruler. you can approach the chart this way or the other but, in the end, you need to have a representative significator. Because, without it, the story does not make sense any more. And, we need it to make sense.
You rightly noticed that Venus looks like a solid candidate which only confirmed your initial idea. But, in a different situation, it could have also made you re-think your decision.

Cheers,

aglaya

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johannes susato wrote:
kali wrote:Maybe I'm taking liberties here that I shouldn't but it's what makes sense to me. Seems I learned it along the years but if people feel that this is incorrect and I must have been confused along the way, I'll change the practice.
I don't think that you are confused, but it looks like you have found the way Lilly already went very successfully, even though the most won't be inclined to understand this.
A necessary addition would certainly be this quotation of Lilly, CA, p. 192:

"If one aske of a Servant, the sixt House is his first House or
Ascendant; the seventh his second or House of Substance, and
so orderly as is before specified: and you must understand that
although every House hath his sixt, eight House and twelfth
House, yet in every one quesited after, the sixt House of the fi-
gure shall signifie his infirmity, the eight his death, the twelfth
his imprisonment; onely you must know how to vary your
Rules, wherein principally consists the Master-peece of the
Art."


Of course there are other traditional authorities besides Lilly, but I think Lilly's text is worth a consideration.

21
Thank you for that quote, johannes. I went back to the original chart in this post and when you take the fifth house from the 9th, Sue's house, you have the son ruling the asc. and Mars ruled Saturn just left an opposition to the son's house and there you have the symbolism of aggression. I believe this shows the attack in this chart that I agree has to be here. Does this make sense?

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kali wrote:Thank you for that quote, johannes. I went back to the original chart in this post and when you take the fifth house from the 9th, Sue's house, you have the son ruling the asc. and Mars ruled Saturn just left an opposition to the son's house and there you have the symbolism of aggression. I believe this shows the attack in this chart that I agree has to be here. Does this make sense?
Personally, I would assign the 9th to the victim (as I already explained - the Ascendant would rule the Astrologer, the 6th her client and 3rd from the 6th ie 9th would rule the client's sister, in this case- the victim). You may notice that this approach gives a very similar result to the approach that you initially embraced - Venus is the prominent figure in both cases which is what actually makes me believe that this is a very good example of a chart that can only be deciphered by the Astrologer as she will know where to look. I've seen charts that were successfully delineated by using two different approached and two different astrologers. Which is normal- there is one answer and, each astrologer has her own way of reaching it.
Whilst the radical Ascendant gives assigns Venus inside the rulership of Saturn to the victim (an elderly lady= Venus; woman, Saturn; old) , in the second version, the victim is assigned Saturn (ruler of the 9th cusp) and Venus ( she is sitting on the 9th cusp which makes her the secondary ruler of the person). The presence of heavily attacked Venus inside the 9th could be descriptive of the attack (Venus rules the Asc) but, as I also already mentioned, there is another potential testimony of the recent events and that is a separating Saturn/Mercury square; Saturn is the Quesited's ruler and the natural ruler of elderly people whilst Mercury rules younger persons and children.

I'd say that you need to focus on what makes most sense to you!;)

Cheers,

aglaya

23
Aglaya wrote:
Personally, I would assign the 9th to the victim (as I already explained - the Ascendant would rule the Astrologer, the 6th her client and 3rd from the 6th ie 9th would rule the client's sister, in this case- the victim). You may notice that this approach gives a very similar result to the approach that you initially embraced - Venus is the prominent figure in both cases which is what actually makes me believe that this is a very good example of a chart that can only be deciphered by the Astrologer as she will know where to look. I've seen charts that were successfully delineated by using two different approached and two different astrologers. Which is normal- there is one answer and, each astrologer has her own way of reaching it.
Did you mean to say 7th to the client? because 3rd from the 6th is 8th house... :???:
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

24
Thank you , aglaya. What I learned is sometimes you need to draw another chart that would describe the situation more accurately. I always stick with my original chart to the point I'm still looking for a separating aspect to show a dramatic attack.

The 2nd chart describes the attack and life threatening crisis, the void Moon tells you she would not die that night but her life would still be threatened when the Moon came to Venus/Pluto conj.

Thanks all for your valuable input.

kali

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kali wrote:but her life would still be threatened when the Moon came to Venus/Pluto conj.
Unfortunately, when the the victim is already in a very bad physical shape as a result of an attack, this conjunction doesn't look too good, I agree.