Hello:

A client called to tell me her sister was in the hospital and they did not think she would live through the night. I drew a chart to determine if she would live. My client does not know I study astrology. I have chosen to use the radical ascendant Venus as Sue's significator. Venus is in 9th house in opposition to ruler of 8th house Jupiter. I thought this most certainly showed that she would not live. But this afternoon my client called to say she is still alive and there is a ray of hope. When I studied the chart further I realized that Venus does not complete it's aspect with Jupiter before turning direct. Could this mean she will live or does the afflicted Moon's opposition to 8th house show the final outcome? What would be your call with this chart?


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Hi Kali

I am not sure i would be comfortable with a prediction of death based on this one aspect.

In this case venus is retrograde and slowing to station, when it will then go direct and avoid the perfection of a conjunction with Pluto and the opposition to Jupiter, Lord 8. I think in situations like this, the best advice is to always listen carefully to the doctor's advice, and also the palliative care nurse, who in my limited experience can sometimes be more accurate.
However I am reminded of the aphorism regarding a planet at its second station being like a person who leaves their sickbed. I think the horary is probably clearly describing the person escaping death at this time. However if a person is very sick, and is known to be dying or gravely ill, then obviously death is only a matter of time.

The Moon will eventually perfect the opposition to Jupiter, and will receive it at which point it will also conjoin Pluto.

Sue is clients sister, so her ruler is Moon, ruler of the 3 house not Venus.

gs53 wrote:Sue is clients sister, so her ruler is Moon, ruler of the 3 house not Venus.

Hi Goca:

It is because of other business matters that she is my client, she does not know I study astrology. I used Lilly's idea that the first house should be used when asking such questions about people we do not know. The only other house I considered was the 3rd house from the 7th which is the 9th house. I felt Venus reflected her circumstances and kept her as the significator.

Paul wrote:Hi Kali

I am not sure i would be comfortable with a prediction of death based on this one aspect.

Even when I consider stars and arabic parts the worse I see is the part of Peril.

Paul wrote:However I am reminded of the aphorism regarding a planet at its second station being like a person who leaves their sickbed. I think the horary is probably clearly describing the person escaping death at this time. However if a person is very sick, and is known to be dying or gravely ill, then obviously death is only a matter of time.

Tragic situation. She was doing fine but her son beat her to the point of putting her in the hospital. Thought she'd be home in a couple of days but bleeding around the brain that could not be stopped put her 'in peril'. I will let you know the outcome.

Kali

Hi, kali!

I don't think that excluding oneself from the Question is generally problematic however, I would think twice before I cast such a chart. This chart has a 7th house Saturn which could be a warning for your as the Astrologer.

Tragic situation. She was doing fine but her son beat her to the point of putting her in the hospital.

This is actually very important - she was attacked. So, in order to check as to how well the ruler you decided to assign to the Querent describes the situation, you need to check if any of the separating aspects suggests such a monstrous attack. In addition, I would make sure that the relationship between her ruler and the ruler of her 5th is descriptive of the situation as well.

Ill Mars rules aggression, squares imply physical attacks, ill dignified angular planets are also often "suspects" in such charts and outer planets add even more weight to stressful events.
In short, the person's bad shape and the recent attack need to be visible in the chart.


Cheers,

aglaya

Excellent insights, aglaya. There isn't such evidence that I can see. I do believe the attack happened, the police have arrested her son and have charged him.

Thank you

kali wrote:Excellent insights, aglaya. There isn't such evidence that I can see. I do believe the attack happened, the police have arrested her son and have charged him.

Thank you

Somehow, one part of my first reply got lost - I asked you about the time used for this chart. Is this the time of your question?

I'm asking because you, basically, have a few options here. Each option, however, requires a different approach.

The option that I would highly recommend for questions about the outcome or consequences of a certain activity (such as the consequences of an attack, the development of illness etc.) is the option of using the time of the attack.
It has happened to me more than once to get a puzzling non-readable chart that I would spend days trying to deciphre only to find out that it was actually the time of the event (rather than the time of the Question) that i should have used in the first place.
This option allows you to legitimately assign the Ascendant to the attacked person since both your and your client become passive or completely irrelevant participants. The second relevant party would, in this option, be represented by the 5th (son).

The 2nd option would be to use the time of the phone-call. The moment when a person establishes a contact with someone whom she wants to ask for help or comfort is the moment when the person is perfectly focused onto the situation which qualifies the moment of the call as a good time for casting a chart. Often, when someone calls me and says:"Can I see you these days? i need to talk to you about something but I don't want to do it over the phone!" I cast a chart and try to nail down the area of the person's biggest interest. it is interesting to see how such charts work - they can be very descriptive of the circumstances.
In this option, you could assign the Ascendant to your client as she is the one who initiated the contact and give the 3rd house to her sister.

Finally, you can ask the question about the situation in which case, it is worth making sure that the chart actually describes the situation because, maybe, the houses do need to be derived. The Moon can always be used as the general significator of the person however, you might also think about assigning the victim a house other than the 1st. You could give the Asc to yourself, the 6th cusp to your client and the 9th (3rd from the 6th), to her sister. The attacker would, then, be represented either by the 1st (the victim's derived 5th) or any other planet that is obviously attacking the ruler of the victim.

Whichever approach you decide to use, you need to check as to how well the chart describes the situation. The ruler of the victim must be descriptive of her current shape (which is quite bad as she has suffered an enormous trauma). In addition, you need to be able to nail down the aspect that suggests physical abuse/attack. If you don't think you can find enough evidences that support the actual facts and activities, then the approach should probably be changed. Especially, if the chart pushes Saturn in one of the angles (7th, 10th) from which it sends a warning to the Astrologer.

In the chart that you posted, there is a very strong activity going on on the 9th cusp which makes me think that the assignment of the significators should, perhaps, be double-checked. Two delicate feminine planets conjunct Pluto (potentially a very destructive influence) sitting on the 9th cusp and casting an opposition onto essentially strong but accidentally debilitated Jupiter could be descriptive of the situation. This position is potentially capable of describing the Quesited's current shape in a version in which the 9th is assigned to the vistim (the client's sister) easpecially since the ruler of the 6th is also placed there showing her affection and worries. Retrograde and cadent Jupiter can often express its worst traits- it is not as generous and well behaved as a direct and angular Jupiter-son. Essential dignities - exaltation give him enormous power (physical in this case), however, accidental debilities suggest misused power whilst the opposition naturally rules confrontations.

On the other hand, we have a Saturn/Mercury square (Saturn rules the 9th), with a Mercury/Neptune conjunction (drug abuse, alcoholism etc.) potentially suggesting fight rooted in age/generational differences (Saturn-old, Mercury-young).
In addition to all this, venus and the 9th cusp are also receiving negative influence from the 12th house Uranus (destructive behaviour).

I am, of course, not suggesting that you should turn the houses in this chart - my point is that the shape of the main significators always needs to be compared with the facts that we already know. Sometimes, the charts lead us to the answer regardless of the approach that we initially take.

Cheers,

aglaya

aglaya asked: "I asked you about the time used for this chart. Is this the time of your question?"

It dawned on me while talking with my client to draw a chart. It puzzles me why it doesn't show the attack.

aglaya: "The 2nd option would be to use the time of the phone-call. In this option, you could assign the Ascendant to your client as she is the one who initiated the contact and give the 3rd house to her sister."

Then Sue is still very much in trouble as the Moon moves to conj Pluto and oppose Jupiter.

aglaya: "In the chart that you posted, there is a very strong activity going on on the 9th cusp which makes me think that the assignment of the significators should, perhaps, be double-checked."

This is what confirmed to me that Venus signifies Sue, seeing that 9th rules her sister and this is precisely what is happening to her right now. Lilly says in 'Christian Astrology' page 408 that if the Lord of the asc. conj or commits his dispostition to, be Lord of the eight, then whether he be a good or an ill planet, he kills (for every planet must do his office,)...". Venus is the only planet that is showing someone being on death's door and possibly coming back. The doctors were telling the family she would not make it through the night they could not stop the bleeding. These are the facts I'm trying to apply to apsect. Does this make sense?

aglaya: "Sometimes, the charts lead us to the answer regardless of the approach that we initially take.

Cheers,

aglaya"

Hey, it shows us how much more there is to learn

kali

Interesting note about Saturn in the 7th from reading Frawley. "The person's significator close to the 7th cusp is testimony of death. Although being angular is strengthening, by primary motion (the apparent movement of the planets around the Earth) a planet on the Descendant is setting, which is an obvious indication of dying." Sue's turned significator is Saturn.

Update: Sue has developed pneumonia. She is 85 yrs old.

This is a chart cast for the time Becky (my client) left a call on my answering machine the night before my chart above. She's quite distraught and calling to tell me her sister may not make it through the night. I give the asc. to Becky and third house cusp to her sister, Sue. Third house ruler, Venus is conj Pluto in 5th house ruling her son and opposing Jupiter. Jupiter rules 8th house and her son. A chart much more descriptive of the son's assault on his mother.

The turned chart putting 3rd house on cusp gives the son Saturn as a ruler and Saturn sits in 2nd house with Jupiter's Antiscia conj Saturn. He told everyone they got into argument over his pounding on pipes in the basement. Everyone else believes it was about money.

Reminder to self: Always check Antisicia aspects. The above chart also has powerful aspects.

Sue died this morning at 12:53 am. The timing, I believe, is shown by Moon's opposition to Jupiter, five days from date of this chart.