is this relationship worth salvaging?

1
hey all,

I need help with deciphering this chart because this is very important question involving 2 people who love each other but father of the groom is against the marriage (some weird excuses then the groom found out that whole argument was just to create drama and split his son and his fiance apart) and mom of the bride is not happy either cause she thinks the guy is not for her. So to make long story short, they broke up on Saturday. Last week they were talking about a wedding today they are talking about if they should stay together and how to repair their relationship. Both are heartbroken. To me it looks like they are willing to work on the relationship but the bride (the querent) is very apprehensive of if it is worth salvaging. All the signs are not for these guys so the bride turned to me with a horary question. He is about to be deployed so this relationship one way or the other should be solved by the time he gets back home in june.
Image
asce 24 virgo sits right on the bride's asce of her natal chart.

she is merc
he is jupiter

merc is about to change signs and eventually it will trine jupiter with mutual application but merc will be very weak in pisces. interestingly enough Jupiter is very dignified. it bothers me that he is exalted sitting in 10th house - arrogance?
however moon will enter capricorn where it is very weak and will oppose jupiter.
So here is my 1st question. Do you take lunar opposition or trine with a merc as an answer?
moon and mercury are out of the orb with jupiter.
Even when mercury enters Pisces, there will be mixed reception but extremely weak from jupiter's standpoint.
Mercury is also in cadent house in the groom's 12th house.

i don't know how to even judge this chart.

Help?
thanks
CD

2
Hi, CD!

I have to give this chart a much better look in order to make any conclusions but, for now...
asce 24 virgo sits right on the bride's asce of her natal chart.
The position of both the Ascendant and a few relevant planets close to the sign boundary, to me, looks very descriptive of the end of a phase. In a way, I would say that what the planets can or cannot do once they enter the new signs is probably saying a lot about the shape of their relationship in the next phase.
it bothers me that he is exalted sitting in 10th house - arrogance?
If the reasons for their break-up are indeed those mentioned by the Querent, then the 4th/10th axis becomes very important. The 10th rules his father and his family and it is expected that his ruler shows strong signs of closeness and attachment to his family. What bugs me, 'tho,m is the fact that this is also the house of the Querent's mother (who appears to be the 2nd obstacle) and that he is disposed by the Moon, the natural ruler of mothers and that they're in strong mutual reception.
The 10th house is very important here as it rules both obstacles (her mother and his father).
Do you take lunar opposition or trine with a merc as an answer?
moon and mercury are out of the orb with jupiter.
Probably- the Moon is inside the 4th house (family influence, inheritance, tradition etc.) and it is obviously strongly affecting the situation. However, I would not dismiss this Venus either. Or the shape of L7.
Look at the Querent - she is cadent (incapable of turning the situation to her own advantage) but essentially still somewhat dignified. Her ruler is tucked away into the backstage (6th, behind the Quesited's back) and, in way, she looks like an innocent looser, dealing with the consequences of other peoples' choices and decisions.
Jupiter, however, is both essentially and accidentally well dignified (he does have some power to act) but there is something wrong with his movement which decreases his dignities and puts a shade on his generally positive behaviour and generosity. Why is he walking in a backwards motion? And what does this Venus stand for? Venus rules the 9th in this chart which obviously suggests his current focus (he is about to leave for a few months) but, given that this planet is also retrograde, aspecting L7 and about to receive the application of the Moon, it becomes very important for the question.
Venus is placed inside the radical 4th, Jupiter is inside the Quesited's derived 4th (homeland, tradition, home, family), it rules distant places and travel and it is retrograde just like Jupiter (going back, wrong direction, twisted characteristics..). Why is the Quesited leaving and where is he going? Is he a foreigner? An expat? Is he going home?

Cheers,

aglaya

3
Aglaya

gosh you are right on the money

he is getting deployed to afganhell (he has been there before) till june then he will come back for a month i think and head out to kuwait.

yeah, his father and her mother are at work here stalling those 2.
about the reception between the groom and the bride's mother in law - maybe she will like him and change her mind?

it is possible that jupiter retro decrease of as you said "walking back" because he is heading to a warzone. He probably can wrap his head around this and make it work but he cant do it atm because of his location and the biggest gap between him and the girl's mom is that she feels like he is still a kid and somewhat lacks of culture. He doesnt know anything about the outer world because military was his life since he was 18 and schools here are pretty bad at teaching. the girl can give him that cultural education it is not that difficult to catch up. As long as there is a will from both people, anything can be accomplished.

Jupiter goes direct in march around 10 deg.

thanks
cd

4
little update...

so they talked and decided literally start from scratch. Instead of goofing off they will spend more time getting to know each other again, reading each other's favorite books .. things of that nature.

So this could explain mutual application and change of signs, wouldn't you agree, Aglaya?

5
cosmicdolphin,


Sometimes I see questions like these and I am --> :???:


Reading too much into this chart would bring confusion.

The Question is not about any event (aspectual contacts). It is about evaluating the 'Worth' of this relationship...


So,aspects and receptions have to be ignored for convenience sake.

The matter to be decided is whether this relation is signified by First house (We) or an abstract as by Seventh House.

Lord Seven exalted, retrograde and in conjunction with 11th cusp tells us about the 'Worth' of this relationship....which is 'Great'...

In my professional experience, exalted planet also tells us about an individual who claims to know more than what he already does. Any effort or action on the part of other to educate might harm the relationship.

Retrograde? It only tells that currently relationship is heading no wheres (which could be rectified with proper attitude)

Oops, again had a look at the Moon. Void of Course. Status quo would be maintained. :(
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

6
wow .. I could see that outcome, Morpheus.

from my personal life, once a vase is broken even with good glue it doesn't sound the same.

yeah but moon sometimes functions when it is void in Sag.

Will keep you guys posted on this!

thanks again
CD

8
I wonder if it's possible to state that the Moon is translating Mercury's light to Jupiter?

The Moon is separating from Mercury, and when it moves to Capricorn, the next aspect is with Jupiter. The Moon's orb being 12? is a interesting information here, because Jupiter is at 12?Cancer.

Either way, Jupiter can't receive the light because it's retrograde. And right after that the Moon finds another retrograde planet, Venus. Being everyone angular, it's said that there is a positive outcome, but not the perfect one.

9
I'm back! :)

First of all, i want to say that i quite like Morpheus's approach - personally, I would not disregard the fact that Jupiter actually rules one of the parties but, examining the shape of the 7th in general (as representative of the shape of the relationship) does sound interesting.
so they talked and decided literally start from scratch. Instead of goofing off they will spend more time getting to know each other again, reading each other's favorite books .. things of that nature.
They're just so cute! :) That's great news. I just hope he can cope with his own image in her mother's eyes - it's can't be pleasant to know that someone considers you uneducated.
So this could explain mutual application and change of signs, wouldn't you agree, Aglaya?
The mutual reception is surely saying something. The Moon is about to switch signs but, even from the next sign, it will actually cast an aspect onto Jupiter in her own rulership and, by doing that, she will express her generosity. It's a very stressful aspect but dealing with the problems openly is, actually, the only thing they can do in order to sort things out and so, the opposition looks almost like a natural situation.

Having said all this:
I wonder if it's possible to state that the Moon is translating Mercury's light to Jupiter?
I wouldn't dismiss it. This chart is actually a good example of why I am often reluctant to accept the sign boundary as definite sign of a negative outcome - sometimes, the sign boundaries just fit the story. If a person is looking for a missing object that is hidden behind a wall that needs to be torn down in order for the object to become visible, that doesn't mean that the object cannot be recovered; it only means that the wall needs to be removed. Or, what if the Querent needs to go into another country in order to fulfill her goal (ie to literally cross a border) - we can expect the sign boundary to suggest that.
In a way, this applied to relationships as well. Firstly, this isn't a question about whether they two of them can stay together- it is a question about the general potential and things that they can do in order to improve their relationship and make it start working again. Secondly, all long term relationships go through different phases and, the proximity of the sign border (which, in this particular case, doesn't apply only to the Moon) could be saying something about the changes that the relationship needs to undergo in order for the situation to become better. Obviously, should the chart give enough evidences, it could also mean that the approaching influences or a change that is inevitable will decrease their powers to act. But, this way or the other, I would not say that say that the sign boundary means a "NO" - I would examine the shape and the movement of the relevant planets throughout the next sign to see as to what options they still have.
It is true that the Moon's next stop is actually the aspect with Venus/Jupiter. It is also true that its last aspect is the one with Mercury so, in a way, we do have a connection. Would I specifically call it the Translation of Light? I don't know but, I would certainly take it as relevant - the Moon will have no other activities in the mean time. The distance and the boundary actually fit the story - the boy is about to go into a distant country where he is about to spend a few months. In addition, that is most likely to be his standard routine.

Considering the natural rulership of the Moon and the exchange of dignities, as well as the position of the L1, I would say that her mother can, indeed, provide help (even if only in terms of relaxing her attitude).

What I would like to know, tho', is - what is the argument against the marriage of the groom's father? Why doesn't he (at least openly) like the idea of her becoming his daughter in law?

10
Hi everyone

Aglaya, I got some 411 on father's issue. Basically, the guy is old and drives his youngest son nuts. He was picking on a girl because she is not exactly his definition of Christian. she is like most of people in today's society (doesn't go to church and doesn't read the bible) "agnostic" - doesn't really care one way or the other. The groom's dad had been throwing a fit since late October and literally broke them up with his religious nonsense 2 weeks ago. This passed Saturday after the groom and the bride had a faceoff with his dad, his father called his son to tell him that HE FELT USED! no explanation was given how that was expressed. So the groom said to his fianc? "Whole argument about Christianity was pointless!" I think they broke up because of the exhaustion from everything that is going on, which COULD explain late degrees. Aglaya you said 'it only means that the wall needs to be removed. Or, what if the Querent needs to go into another country in order to fulfill her goal (ie to literally cross a border)" and that made me think "maybe there is something to it!" If we look at the whole thing, Merc on its own is weak plus going retrograde so in a way that is like going back and starting from the beginning. The very next aspect from Mercury is a sextile with Mars. I am not sure of a significance yet.
I looked at Moon as we have been talking about and I realized that Moon rules 11th house, so i asked who is trying to get you two back together? She said his friends who became my friends are trying to put us back together. He let things deteriorate when he should have put his foot down.

Angles are mutable = unstable situation. I much rather have fixed signs.

thanks
CD

11
cosmicdolphin wrote: Aglaya, I got some 411 on father's issue. Basically, the guy is old and drives his youngest son nuts. He was picking on a girl because she is not exactly his definition of Christian...and literally broke them up with his religious nonsense
Bingo! I was hoping you'd say something of the kind because, then, the chart would make much more sense. The strong influence of the 4th (and the whole axis, for that matter) was clearly indicating, not only troubles with the parents, but also the nature of the biggest obstacle. The, by being placed inside the 4th stresses the area of traditional values, family or national heritage. My first impression after seeing this chart (and, after reading that the family disapproved with the relationship) that the main problem has got something to do with the cultural differences because, this looks a lot like a chart cast for two people of different nationalities who are having troubles making their families accept the fact that they want to stay together.
The 4th is not the only reason why I think that the chart is actually stressing the differences of this kind - Venus is saying the same thing. Venus rules the 9th which stands for religion but also spiritual values and philosophical approaches of all kinds (agnosticism as well), it is angular (strong or emphasized) and casting an opposition onto L7 which, again, is the natural ruler of everything described by the 9th. Note that Venus is also conjunct Pluto which screams - radicalism!

The trouble with the help that the Moon is potentially capable of providing (and, I agree that friends can be great negotiators and mediums in this case), is the shape of the Moon inside Capricorn. It is exactly when it enters into the sign where it can finally become productive and cast some important aspects that it actually becomes almost completely powerless -Capricorn is the sign of Her detriment. Moreover, Capricorn is the sign of the fall of Jupiter.

Is it still capable of delivering a positive outcome? Potentially but, at what cost. Seeing this cadent L1 clinging onto the Moon and hoping she will save her, strong influence of the 9th and the 4th and falls and detriments - it makes me wonder if they could actually force her to embrace the "values" that she does not accept.

Cheers,

aglaya

12
Aglaya.

I didn't really pay attention to religious shenanigans until she explained what was going on. The ironic thing is the groom is more open minded and it is not like they will be living in the same state as the father. They are overdoing with religious stuff. I came from an atheist country so I don't really understand what is the fuss all about but it did shake the family up the fact that the groom picked such a different person.
If he can stand up and say "I pick her because blah blah blah" and shields her away from the nutcases then they have a shot. I do not know anyone who is involved other than the querent. It's really hard to tell. And all his friends are spiritual / religious and they are all against the father of the groom claiming that he is a bit tyrannical/ethnocentric for no reason.

According to the Brotherhood of light, "If one or more of the significator is Retrograde the matter may be brought to pass, but it will never manifest all that is expected of it."

so it's a loss and loss situation. If the groom rebels, it will shake up family structure even more. If he loses the girl, he is back at square 1. If she gives in then def she is screwed cause she is going against her logic. the groom is very much pissed off on why did his father create all that ruckus over nothing, no point, no agenda.

CD