magic and astrology

[AstroNovice]

whats the general philosophy regarding the interaction between magic and astrology? I mean at first the two things seem to be incompatible, but obviously this cant entirely be the case since stuff like astrological magic exists. That being said whats a good analogy to understand their relationship?

For me, at the current moment I see astrological influences as being the predominant force that ultimately decides everything, while magic is merely a non-physical way of tapping into latent astrological energies that would otherwise be expressed in a physical/ordinary manner. (thus magic is typically used when physical modes of action are impossible/inappropriate) Does this sound fairly accurate?

Furthermore, exactly what are the limitations of magic? For me I feel that magically speaking, people can only experience that which is shown in their natal chart and even with all the magic in the world they cannot alter their natal promise. Likewise, I feel that everyone has a certain potential promised in the natal chart, but not everybody realizes that potential due to temperament, environment, etc. So would it be reasonable to assume that through magic we are able to maximize the potential promised in our natal chart while being unable to change the natal promise itself? Or can magic overcome that?

[epurdue]

Astrological magic is a branch of electional astrology, so it's basically taking advantage of good placements. Most of the source literature says that as magicians, we are actually dealing spirits associated with the planets rather than the planets themselves. Personally I'd argue that astrology in general works this way.

As for what what it can accomplish, there are different schools of thought on this. Personally, I don't believe it overrides the natal chart, but it can strengthen what is there.

It can also be used in a more devotional way, since we are dealing with spirits. An old teacher of mine once told me that magic can act like roots on a tree. The deeper the roots are, the less easily the tree can be blown over. It won't change the essential nature of someone, but it can help strengthen them and smooth the rough spots over.

[AstroNovice]

thanks for the insightful reply! I really loved the analogy you gave me. So basically it sounds like more or less, our thoughts on the matter are about the same then?

[epurdue]

I'd agree, but again there are different opinions on this. I know some very competent magicians who'd disagree. Of course this is the source of many a good natured argument.

[AstroNovice]

wow that sounds really interesting. Can you tell me some of the arguments they make for being able to overpower astrological influences? Are they too also knowledgeable about astrology?

[epurdue]

I think it's basically that through magic, one can connect to the higher spheres and transcend fate. Essentially the natal chart is the "default" state that people are born into, and by gaining wisdom they can overcome it. It actually has some support in the "Corpus Hermeticum".

There isn't one overarching way to approach this, so you have to develop a personal philosophy. Yes I'd consider these people knowledgeable too.

[AstroNovice]

I read something similar about ancient practioneers of taoism who said something about being able to transcend fate once you become enlightened. Of course at the time I wrote off such an observation because I assumed that they were not aware of astrology. However hearing that other people who ARE knowledgeable about astrology saying the same thing makes me take what they said a lot more seriously.

Sorry to keep bothering you, but do you know any other sources that I can read up more about this? Or about magic in general? (any magic forums you know would be great)

[Deb]

Have you visited Christopher Warnock's site at http://www.renaissanceastrology.com
If not, follow the link on the home page to "Getting Started in TRADITIONAL
ASTROLOGY & MAGIC" - might lead you somewhere useful.

[Paul]

AstroNovice

I know next to nothing about astrological magic, however Ben Dykes has written a book on the subject:
http://www.bendykes.com/astromagic.php

And the good news is that he's offering 20% off until the 8th of December:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7945

[epurdue]

The two best sources are "The Picatrix", the Latin version of which is translated by John Michael Greer and Christopher Warnock. It's quite easy to find.

The other is "Three Books of Occult Philosophy" by H.C. Agrippa. There are two versions: one translated in the 1600s by J.F. (there is a version published in the 90s annotated by Donald Tyson, using J.F.'s translation), and my upcoming translation. Book one is out. The rest is in revision phase now, so some time next year.

[epurdue]

Oh and the third, while not specifically magic, is the "Corpus Hermeticum". It's the philosophical basis for astrology, magic, and alchemy - all of which are the three hermetic arts. Pretty much every astrologer between the medieval period and renaissance were very familiar with this book.

The Brian Copenhaver translation is best.

[AstroNovice]

alright, thanks guys

[JPskyman]

An interesting topic. I have been thinking about both these subjects for some time--not necessarily together, though they can complement each other. I guess I will try to articulate some of my thinking here, at least as a starting point.

I view astrology as a great symbol system that connects each human being to time and space--a specific time and space in the universe, represented by the natal chart. That is a special, unique moment and place in time and space for an individual.

That symbol, the natal chart, and the passing of time and movement through space, and all the changes throughout the seasons can mean much to us. If we use it responsibly, astrology can--at least--help us look much more deeply into ourselves and become more introspective--while staying fully connected, at least symbolically, to the entirety of the universe (the cosmos, and time and space).

Magic has many different forms, including, as another commenter said, contacting what are called spirits or angels etc. Through ritual and ceremony and meditation, magic also helps connect us to the physical plane of existence, and to the other 'worlds' of existence, such as the astral, mental, and spirit worlds. Again, these can be or mean different things to different people, and that is fine.

I think both astrology and magic can then be taken to another purpose--discernment. By meditating on and really thinking about the symbols and practices of both, astrology and magic can help us see things differently and in new lights and from other angles beyond our ordinary thinking and experience. I tread carefully, here, of course, as I personally do not see value in concretizing the symbol systems by 'predicting'--but that is my way of using them.

The point of it all, at least for me, is that these symbol systems connect us to the broader universe--nature, the cosmos, and 'spirit' (whatever that last means to someone) and can help us transcend ordinary existence and more fully 'be'. Astrology and magic also connect us to cultures and peoples alive on the planet today, and across the ages: we all share the sky; we all share the cosmos--there is great appeal for me in that.

Astrology and magic (high and 'low') contribute to this worldview and way of living and thinking, and can help make one better know oneself and better live in concert with the universe--naturally, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. This is the appeal of both, and why I find such meaning in them.

Thanks for this thread!

[waybread]

Can you define magic, and explain how it differs from religious faith?

[epurdue]

Are you asking me or JPskyman?