960 year jupiter-saturn cycle

1
the jupiter-saturn conjunction has come up a few times in conversation lately. i am curious to know if anyone knows the starting point for the 960 year cycle that this duo is supposed to be on? it appears to be connected to the timing of it's entry into aries. perhaps i can figure this out on my own, but i thought i would ask anyway.

i finished reading nicholas campions book 'astrology and cosmology' last night. in the chapter on islam cosmology this jupiter-saturn cycle is discussed. in it i quote from page 182 "At some point, perhaps after the Persian occupation of Babylon in 539BCE, most likely following the spread of Hellenistic astrology after the 2nd century BCE, it was noticed that the conjunctions between the two slow-moving planets, Jupiter and Saturn, which take place every 20 years, progress through the signs of the zodiac in an orderly sequence that repeats itself after 960 years"

the footnote that goes with this 25 "Abu Ma'shar, On Historical Astrology 1.16 11-13.

mark had started a thread on the jupiter-saturn conjunctions but it didn't discuss this 960 year cycle. that thread is here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... turn+cycle

on another note of interest slightly connected as it is dealing in the conjunctions of other large planets (uranus and neptune), is an audio lecture recently done by chris brennan at the cost of 10$ for anyone interested. here is a link to this - http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/s ... y-lecture/

2
I don't recall the exact year but it is the Aries Ingress or Grand conjunction for about 760 AD. I have a tape of a lecture given by Rob Hand on this topic - somewhere. If no one comes up with it, I'll try to find the tape and post the date.

3
hi tom,
that would be most helpful. thanks. i have tried to find a ju/sa conjunction close to the beginning of aries, but am not having any real luck. i am curious what mashallah thought the starting point was, or if hand was able to provide a starting point. thanks - james

4
First a sad story then a rescue. I found the case that held the audio tape I made of a lecture by Rob Hand on this topic on May 5, 2002. Alas the tape isn't in it and I can't find it. Hand's discussion was on the chart of the modern era:

I have this website from Astrologer Richard Nolle

http://www.astropro.com/features/tables ... 000sa.html

He gives the conjunctions for a 3000 year period.

908 is probably the year Abu Mashar used, but in his day they used the nearest Aries Ingress as that could be accurately calculated but the Jupiter Saturn conjunction

Hope this helps.

5
thanks tom,

the table from richard nolles site is very handy. i note that the idea of jupiter/saturn conjunctions being on a 960 year cycle isn't being substantiated! i continue to be curious about the idea of a certain cycle where they are repeated, but i don't see it here.. perhaps someone has additional information on this that i am missing.

james

6
Abu Mashar said it was a 960 year cycle on average, and he miscalculated. It's not like clockwork. Hand told us that the actual number is a 795 year average.
I'm really ticked off that I can't find the tape. If I do I'll take some notes and post them here.

7
thanks tom,
i hope you find it and are able to share what you find!

a 795 year cycle sounds more like it using the data off richard nolles page.. actually it appears to be a 794 and 2 month cycle based off these examples..

|JAN 29, 114 | 11:03 AM | 000 | 06AR13 | 06AR13 |

|MAR 13, 908 | 04:42 PM | 000 | 04AR46 | 04AR46 |

MAY 21, 1702 | 08:58 PM | 000 | 06AR36 | 06AR36

8
pingree attributed the discovery of the 20 year cycle to the Persian (Magi) period, saying that was their ONLY contribution to astrology, so I surmise it predates Alexander and the Hellenistic period ... Pingree being incorrect insofar as the first natal chart 42? BC cast during the Persian hegemony

9
I found the tape! I'll have to post things in order, but over several posts since a full explanation would be too lengthy for one post. For better or for worse, my posts will come as I am willing and able to write them.

The information below, in this and any other posts, is from a lecture given by Rob Hand to the Astrological Society of Princeton (NJ) on May 2, 2002. What follows is what he said. I'm staying out of it. I'll be happy to clarify what I write if and when that is necessary, but I'm not going to defend it or attack what is in there.

Abu Mashar is the Persian astrologer who came up with the idea of using the conjunctions of Saturn and Jupiter to reveal and predict historical cycles. His calculations showed that on an average of every 960 years this conjunction took place in the first terms of Aries, which depending on system used would be about the first 5 - 7 degrees.

There are two problems inherent in this idea. One is that Abu Mashar was wrong. Modern calculations show that the re-occurrence of thee Great Conjunction averages about 795 years. The second is that neither he nor anyone for about 1000 years after him could accurately calculate the Saturn Jupiter conjunctions sufficiently to obtain an accurate ascendant. They solved this problem by determining the date of the Saturn Jupiter conjunction and then using the Aries Ingress that preceded it.

Modern astrology software can accurately time a Jup-Sat conjunction though. So the question arises, should we use that instead of the preceding Aries Ingress? For purposes of this lecture, Hand used the Aries Ingress chart that preceded the last Great Conjunction.

So here are the dates of both:

The Conjunction itself occurred on May 21, 1702, 7:18 PM GMT

The preceding Aries Ingress occurred on March 21, 1702, 2:11 AM GMT. Hand selected London for the chart as London was the most important city in the west at that time.

I'll go into the discussion next time.

11
Tom wrote:neither he nor anyone for about 1000 years after him could accurately calculate the Saturn Jupiter conjunctions sufficiently to obtain an accurate ascendant. They solved this problem by determining the date of the Saturn Jupiter conjunction and then using the Aries Ingress that preceded it.

Modern astrology software can accurately time a Jup-Sat conjunction though. So the question arises, should we use that instead of the preceding Aries Ingress? For purposes of this lecture, Hand used the Aries Ingress chart that preceded the last Great Conjunction.
I thought it might be worthwhile to add this remark here. The Astrological History of Masha'allah, by E.S. Kennedy and David Pingree (Harvard un. Press, 1971) gives the judgement Masha'allah made on a series of charts relating to the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions. In one of these judgements (p.43) he tells us: "what will be from these indications in the transit [i.e., the "shift"] indicates the mighty things which occur in the conjunctions, and what will be in the time of the conjunction indicates what will happen in its year. What is of them at the time of the year-transfer of the world-years (that is, vernal equinoxes) indicate what will happen in its months".

Pingree adds a clarifying endnote to this remark (p.94) to make its meaning clearer:
The shifts indicate what happens while the conjunctions remain within one triplicity (that is, for periods of 238/9 or 258/9 years); the conjunctions, what happen between themselves (that is, for 19/20 years), and the transfer of the world-year, what happens in each solar year.

12
thanks deb!

i have heard that thought of the jupiter saturn cycle in relation to its stay in the earth signs before moving to the air signs? or whatever as the beginning of a new cycle.. back then i hadn't heard of the word 'triplicity'!

deb on another note deb you mention this book translated by 'E.S. Kennedy and David Pingree'... i was thinking of how many ben dykes books i have that mention these types of sources, especially pingree.. i wonder how others are able to access these books? every time i look the price on them is prohibitive.. maybe if i lived close to a library in a large city they would have a copy i could take out, but i don't.. do you own this book you mention and was it expensive to get, or did you come by it via the library, etc.? i wish i had access to these different books! how would you distinguish pingrees translations verses ben dykes versions if you are comfortable to comment? i have pingrees translation of dorotheus 'carmen astrologicum' which was reasonably priced..i am sure there is an interesting story behind why this one is available and many of pingrees other books are so rich price wise..

hopefully tom comes back to the thread and comments on the tapes from hand!