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Secondary Progressions

 
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 94
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Secondary Progressions Reply with quote

I'm paying more attention to them as a result of algol on the progressed midheaven which resulted in my head on the chopping block at work. In the past my progressed planets have been accompanied by other astrological influences so it was difficult to isolate a primary factor. But in this algol situation there was nothing else going on (other than a dodgy solar return), and the symbolism fit so well I was astounded. I felt like Thomas Cromwell, lifted up to the heights by the King and then, suddenly Thumbs down That was three years ago, and now I'm looking at a progressed venus to virgo next month. I'm hoping I will "fall" into love with work and modesty and realistic goals Neutral


I would love to hear any experiences of (secondary) progressed planets, virgo or otherwise.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello DonnaChang,

Progressing the Angles/Cusps by True Solar Right Ascension should always correspond pretty tightly with the timing of major events... (assuming the birth time is correct, of course)

For example, (from my life):

When my Descendant progressed to conjoin my Natal Saturn (ruling 7th)... I began an intimate relationship with a woman (9 years my senior), whom I would eventually marry.

When my Vertex progressed to contact Venus... I met (online) the woman that I would later marry (and have 3 kids with).

When my IC conjoined Neptune... I made my first trip overseas. (for a secret romantic rendezvous... Natal Neptune in 5th)

When Mars progressed to contact Saturn, I had an auto accident at work. (hitting a stationary object... look at the symbolism!)

When Mercury conjoined (3rd House) Pluto, I moved to another country, where I have had to learn/use a new language.

Sign-wise...when my Venus progressed from Virgo into Libra, I left my (Virgo) Wife and moved in with my (future) 2nd Wife (Libra rising).

House-wise...when Venus entered my 4th House, I began living together with (the woman who would become) my 2nd Wife.

Take care,

James
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can always see some connection in any of these predictive tools in use by astrologers.. the dilemma for astrologers as i see it is being able to make a prediction in advance based off what you see. this is where one has to develop an appreciation for the predictive tools that bring the most consistent and best results when examining them thru past events to the data.

my experience with secondary progression data has been luke warm.. sometimes they seem to have some relevance, and just as often they don't.. secondary progressions were one of the more favoured predictive tools from the 70's and 80's based on my experience. somewhere along the line i found out about solar arc directions and found them to be more reliable. presently i am working on understanding primary directions which have a number of options to choose from which all gives different data results. solar return charts have made a comeback as a predictive tool in the last 20 years and i think they are often a good source for understanding the future although not bullet proof either. one could say the reason none of these different predictive tools are bullet proof is i am using the wrong options, primary keys and etc. etc. of course that is always possible!

depending on how you are forwarding or reversing ( converse progs) the angles, the data off the angles will be most important and it will be the same in the solar arc directions or secondary progressions. in that sense these 2 predictive tools are no different, but the option of how you are progressing or directing the data is important. this is why atlantean articulated the option he uses for sec progs -
Atlantean wrote:

Progressing the Angles/Cusps by True Solar Right Ascension should always correspond pretty tightly with the timing of major events... (assuming the birth time is correct, of course)


i would experiment with the different predictive tools until you find what works in the most reliable way for you. i can't say i am a big fan of secondary progression data, only becuase of the inconsistent results i have gotten with them that don't seem to add up as favourably as some of the other tools i have mentioned here.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 233
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am happy with them generally. But like to check solar arcs as well.
here is an example I looked into yesterday. Heather Locklear marriage with Tommy Lee. Note P VE-00-SU classical.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJw1jkFPwzAMhX8NEkieFKdN1xL5MHGAwzhNiLNLvabakk5NoMq_J6vg4k9-fvJ763SZSNvRE6MNAx3nr8tVeIE34eRkgTNoAx1g1yDg_rlW4NoVRo6g4DjHB60OYZSrRHg5lOXx4_QEiO2KBqo6qAq-oapgp_daKVA2DpwJC_0cSBkb80LYtc1oeegDe6G_4PLrv8v9NHAS0qaoJ7kl8f3m2FoVrlNyBfIjId1lVcY7583RNrZP-Ua6NtYnR5xW62KmHdolEn6-_gL_C005

Next marriage with Richie Samdora had PMC--120-SU (in libra 7th)
And P MC-150-VE ( Note that mc and venus in aspect in radix which makes this aspect more important.)
P Desc.-00-MA

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJw1jkFPwzAMhX8NEkieFKdN1xL5MHGAwzhNiLNLvabakk5NoMq_J6vg4k9-fvJ763SZSNvRE6MNAx3nr8tVeIE34eRkgTNoAx1g1yDg_rlW4NoVRo6g4DjHB60OYZSrRHg5lOXx4_QEiO2KBqo6qAq-oapgp_daKVA2DpwJC_0cSBkb80LYtc1oeegDe6G_4PLrv8v9NHAS0qaoJ7kl8f3m2FoVrlNyBfIjId1lVcY7583RNrZP-Ua6NtYnR5xW62KmHdolEn6-_gL_C005
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 94
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all for commenting, I apologize for taking so long to respond.

Very interesting data atlantean. I don't know what formula Astrodienst uses to progress the ascendent. My venus progression to Leo corresponded to a divorce, but at the same time mercury was progressed to pluto, with saturn/uranus conjunctions to moon in 7th (transits). This current venus progression is uncomplicated compared to that hot mess.

Hi James and Stefan-- I don't find as much predictive power in primary progressions and solar arcs as I do with other methods but I haven't worked with them as long.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5156
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donna Chang wrote:
Quote:
I don't find as much predictive power in primary progressions and solar arcs as I do with other methods but I haven't worked with them as long.


Are you aware that the progressed angles normally used in secondary progressions are actually calculated using primary directions? ( aka primary progressions).

Unfortunately, astrological software seldom mentions which version of primary directions is being used to calculate the SP angles.

If we are going to use primary directions it makes more sense to calculate the entire chart that way rather than just the SP angles. Although as James has pointed out we are then left with the bewildering choice of which of the various calculation methods of primary directions to use.

Using a different key can change the rate that the angles move by primary direction.

Logically, though Secondary progressed (SP) angles should be moving very fast if we apply the principle of secondary progressions which is 1 day= 1 year. What I call ''the real SP angles'' are given the rather technical sounding label of 'Quotidian' Secondary Progressed angles. Unlike the SP angles found on most astrology software Quotidian angles are calculated following the basic logic of secondary progressions and move at the rate of approximately 1 sign a month. IMHO the more commonly used SP angles based on primary directions create a confusing mixture of two entirely different predictive techniques.

I agree with James that solar arcs seem to pick up outer events more reliably than secondary progressions do. It needs to be pointed out though that the solar arc and SP sun are calculated exactly the same.

I see this not just in natal but in mundane astrology too.

Having said that the SP Moon is always worth checking and I always look for planets changing sign by SP or forming aspects to the radix. As i already mentioned SP angles are normally based on primary directions not secondary progressions!

Underlying all these discussions about technique is the issue of looking at predictive astrology as a time based hierarchy. Arguably, the longer term cycles present the bigger term picture , the intermediate or annual systems present the issues over a year or less while the short term systems refine the picture down to a few months, weeks or even days, hours and minutes to assist shorter term timing.

From hellenistic, medieval and Indian astrology we have various time lord systems that seek to describe periods of years in a person's life ruled by either a particular planet or sign. Examples include zodiacal releasing or the Indian dasas.

Then we have various systems that could be described as intermediate or median in time scale and often based on an annual focus such as solar returns, solar arcs, primary directions, and annual profections by sign.

Lastly we have shorter term cycles which can time events based on a few months, weeks or even days, hours and minutes. Clearly, transits are a very popular method of short term timing.

However, astrologers like to use many additional predictive systems for short term issues. Examples, include the SP Moon, Quotidian SP angles, tertiary and minor progressions. Other popular systems include lunar returns and lunations. One of my favourite shorter term systems are what I call incremental profections. In this system the whole chart progresses 30 degrees a year. Hence in a month a planet will move by incremental progression about 2.5 degrees. This was a very popular technique in medieval and renaissance astrology .

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The American astrologer Joseph Crane has made some interesting comments about the contrast between secondary progressions and solar arcs:

Quote:
Modern astrologers tend to use secondary progressions and solar arc directions differently. Secondary progressions are often used to highlight turning points or climate changes in a person’s life: if a person’s Sun moves by progression from Aries to Taurus, gradually one will see this persons’ Sun taking on some Taurus qualities. These kinds of changes also occur when a planet changes sign or is at a direct or retrograde station, or when an aspect (particularly between Sun and Moon) becomes exact. Solar arc directions are more often used to predict discrete events, intentional or accidental. When one is unsure of a person’s birth time, solar arc directions are often used to “rectify” the chart by looking at the timing of singular events in a person’s life.


The above passage is from his book Astrological Roots: the Hellenistic Legacy.


This online selection from the book discusses the two techniques further:

http://astrologyinstitute.com/progressions_directions.pdf

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3728
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks for sharing the pdf file from cranes hellenistic roots book which i have. i remember reading that but it was nice to go over pages 12-15 on the pdf file again! i tried using ascendant arc directions a wee bit but i liked re- reading some of the rationale for them that i had forgotten about since reading the book.. thanks!

i find the use of terminology sometimes confusing.. primary progressions is not something that anyone ever uses that i have read! secondary progressions, or primary directions yes - but primary progressions - no..
perhaps i am too reliant on solar fire and the books i have read to give me the meanings of these words - progression or direction - in such a way where they are not all interchangeable.. i can get minor progression data which is a "1 month = 1 year" progression formula, tertiary progression data which is "1 day = 1 month" but not primary progressions! perhaps donna means primary directions which is "4 minutes = 1 year" or she meant to say secondary progressions ( 1 day = 1 year formula)..
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:

Quote:
i find the use of terminology sometimes confusing.. primary progressions is not something that anyone ever uses that i have read!


Your quite right. I thought I had read this alternative terminology somewhere but I must have imagined it. I think I was confusing this with solar arcs. Usually described as solar arc directions but occasionally progressions to add to the confusion!

The best book I have found on the three systems of progressions (Secondary, Tertiary and Minor) is by the late Robert Blaschke entitled: Progressions.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Progressions-Astrology-A-Language-Life/dp/0966897803

There are a lot of nuances in the calculation of these cycles. For example there is a slight variation in the calculation of mean vs true progressions.

This discussion on the ACT Astology Forum raises this issue:

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=24

A more fundamental issue which I have never seen raised anywhere is whether we are basing our progression calculations using monthly time periods on the zodiacal/sidereal month or the synodic month?

I understand most astrology software works on the basis of the sidereal rather than the synodic lunar month?

http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/animations/content/sidereal.html

This would mean we would have two completely different versions of Tertiary and Minor progressions.

I have always felt it was unfortunate that the system based on 1 lunar month=1 solar year has ended up with the uninspiring title of 'minor progressions.' I think 'Lunar progressions' would be a more accurate title.

I have read this system was actually proposed by Placidus Di Tito along with secondary progressions. However, he based them on the synodic month not the sidereal month.

I would be interested if any software offers this alternative calculation method.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

you bring up some worthwhile issues to address.

i agree with you that the term 'minor progressions' is not the best choice of words to describe one ( sidereal) month = 1 year progression.. perhaps not enough astrologers explore this technique to want to re name it something else? that would be my first guess.

regarding software, i can only comment on solar fire and morinus which is what i presently use. solar fire gives a page in the user guide that gives some useful data for user defined progressions and directions. here is what it looks like in the user manual.

"In addition to the secondary, tertiary and minor rates of progression, it is possible for the user to specify their own rate. The existing rates that are pre-defined are as follows.

Secondary Rate - one day per solar year = 1 / 365.24219907 = .00273790926

Mean Tertiary Rate - one day per lunar cycle = 1 / 27.32158648 = .03660109676

Minor Rate - one lunar cycle per solar year = 27.32158648 / 365.24219907 = .07480402242

You can define your own rate by simply working out the required ratio e.g. if you wish to use a lunar progression rate

Lunar Progression Rate = 1 day per lunation cycle = 1 / 29.53059027778 = .033863190359"

as a consequence of being able to input different ratios in the user defined area for progressions or directions one can actually do minor progressions using a synodic as opposed to sidereal month if they work out the formula. here is how i did it -
29.53059027778 divided by 365.2419907 = 0.080852122784
i used this website to enter that data in by hand
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/division-calculator.htm

as i understand it this will produce the data based on the synodic instead of the sidereal month, but you have to enter it in yourself in the edit preferences menu on solar fire. i am using solar fire 7.3 at present and not sure when this option became available in the numerous updates that some solar fire users may or may not have bought into.

for the record, i like looking at minor progressions and i have looked at a few other progressions and directions using this user defined option that solar fire allows. i can't say i have any strong conclusion to make on any of it though as i haven't went about examining it is a consistent and methodical way.

i tend to look at a number of predictive type charts and while i find sometimes some of them describe a situation better then others, they all seem to have some merit. developing a system that is reliable in a predictive sense is tricky! it isn't so much about the many tools to choose from so much as it is knowing which ones are the most reliable and consistent. this is my ongoing challenge with primary directions at present. i still haven't figured it out and there is very little guidance being offered on the internet perhaps for the simple reason not many people are working with primary directions, or sharing their work and conclusions openly on what they have discovered.




Mark wrote:

A more fundamental issue which I have never seen raised anywhere is whether we are basing our progression calculations using monthly time periods on the zodiacal/sidereal month or the synodic month?

I understand most astrology software works on the basis of the sidereal rather than the synodic lunar month?

This would mean we would have two completely different versions of Tertiary and Minor progressions.

I have always felt it was unfortunate that the system based on 1 lunar month=1 solar year has ended up with the uninspiring title of 'minor progressions.' I think 'Lunar progressions' would be a more accurate title.

I have read this system was actually proposed by Placidus Di Tito along with secondary progressions. However, he based them on the synodic month not the sidereal month.

I would be interested if any software offers this alternative calculation method.

Mark
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 94
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Mark and James for your replies.

No Mark, I was not aware that progressed angles in secondary progressions are calculated using primary directions. Every time I attempt to understand the rational behind these calculations I despair. But I know enough to admit my ignorance, hence my consultation with Joseph Crane on primary DIRECTIONS (for James).
Thanks so much for the reference. Joseph is a first rate scholar and human being. After reading the excerpt you provided I spent two days looking exclusively at solar arcs and finally "saw" something. More significantly, I'm beginning to view the variety of techniques in astrology as a strength rather than a liability (my former view.)
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 94
Location: San Francisco

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,
I asked for venus progressed experiences and thought I'd share mine so far. Venus progressed to virgo in October and I have been sick for two months with bronchitis, sinusitus, conjunctivitis. Every time I start feeling better it all comes back. I've been pretty healthy all my life. Also, my virgo son just had a devastating experience and I'm trying to support him as best as I can, feeling as awful as I do. (His ascendant lord is venus conjunct south node in 1st which is as bad as it sounds.) Hope this isn't an overshare, but I'm feeling very sorry for myself right now crying
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Secondary Progressions Reply with quote

Donna Chang wrote:


I would love to hear any experiences of (secondary) progressed planets, virgo or otherwise.


I always use the Secondary progressions - I'm a traditional astrology sinner, I know! Smile

The truth is, I find them to be very accurate timing-wise!
So, I agree with this Atlantean's statement:

Quote:
Progressing the Angles/Cusps by True Solar Right Ascension should always correspond pretty tightly with the timing of major events... (assuming the birth time is correct, of course)


The truth is, however, that, in most cases when I was able to find a strong connection between the activities and events in my life and secondary progressions, the same or similar activities were promised in other predictive charts (I use Solar return charts, Profections and directions). But, I can't but to notice that, even when an event is promised by three predictive methods and even if they all give me a very similar timing (ex.5 days), the true time of the event always coincides with the time promised by the Secondary progressions. So, in a way, I could say that i often use them to pin point the exact time (although, I'm fine with "close" and "nearly that time" just as well).


Ascendant progressed through Virgo

- I'm a Virgo rising with Saturn and North Node inside the 1st. However, when my progressed Asc touched my Natal True node and Saturn in Virgo (and made a square with my natal Mars inside the 10th in Gemini) in the 1990. I was only 11 and I don't recall that period quite well. What I do remember is that my menstrual cycles began around that time.

-My Ascendant was also progressed to a sextile with my natal Venus in 11th/Cancer when I was 5yo and I think that my mother had to undergo a surgery then and that I was really scared.

-Asc progreesed to a sextile with my natal Sun (11th, Cancer) - I witnessed a coup d'état (I thought it was much fun, actually, as people usualy do when they're in their early 20'es) and I had my first great fight with my first big love.
(Around that time, the progressed Asc was also casting a trine onto my natal Neptune in 4th which all makes quite a lot of sence - the Sun is the major authority, the Cancer rules masses and the 4th is home or homeland, a coup was a rather logical result Very Happy ).

As you can see, so far, the sextiles are quite looney in my case. Smile

-Asc in Virgo progressed to natal MC - nothing
-Asc progressed to POF (in 7th, Pisces), I unexpectedly had to move back home after more then 10 years in another town (due to all sorts of reasons). i wasn't happy with that fact at all.

Planets

-Venus progressed into Leo, the 12th, I made up a decision that I would do what ever it takes to enter an academy of dramatic arts.

-Mercury, Ascendant ruler, (in retrograde motion) progressed into an opposition with my natal Moon in Aquarius/6th, I was accepted into arts academy (the Sun was also on the Ascendant in my SR chart that year)

-Sun progressed into opposition with Moon, I officially became a student, I left home and moved into a different country

-Moon in Scorpio/3rd progressed into a trine with Natal Venus, I fell in love and lost my virginity Embarassed

-Progressed Sun in 12th/Leo sextile Mars/10th/Gemini - heart-broken

-Moon in Scorpio progressed into a trine with Sun in Cancer: my mathernal grandmother died, my father underwent a surgery (colon cancer, he was fine immediately after the surgery), I find a benign lump in my breast, I am awarded as the student of the year. All in one month.

-Moon progressed into a trine with Mercury (L1) and Jupiter - nothing which is actually quite interesting because I graduated from the academy half a year later as one of the best students. The promise of that moment in the charts, however, remains an unresolved mystery to me.

-Moon conjunct Moon inside the 6th - severe food poisoning Sick

-Moon trine Venus fro Picses/7ACth - my first well paid job.

and so on...
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use secondary progressions and converse secondaries -- paying close attention to the lunation cycle ... the prog and con-prog lunations, new full established pulse and rhythm of the life, its initiations and culminations -- which was published in American Astrology late '90's as The Dianic Code.
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