The problem I'm still having about this is when are we going out on a limb from the traditional tree trunk on branches that may Not lend us enough support.

I mean Lilly based much of his work upon Bonatti and others and studied the Ancients. Yet even he deviated some as in:

CA pp. 166-167

"Of the time of receiving any QUESTION"

This way and manner have I practised, and found successe answerable: And whereas Bonatus and some others doe give warning that the Astrologian judge not his owne Question, and say he cannot tell
how to accept of a question from himselfe; this I conceive was
his reason, Because he thought the Artist would be partiall to
himselfe in his judgment: Verily I am of a contrary opinion
and have found by many experiments, that at what hour the

167
mind or intention of the Astrologer is heavily perplexed with,
or concerning the successe of any matter wherein himselfe is
really concerned, I say he may with great reason accept of that
hour for the true time of erecting his Scheame of Heaven, and
he may (if not partiall) as well judge of that Figure erected by
himselfe, as of any other; but herein I advised him to lay aside
all love and partiality unto his owne Cause."

I mean unless Lilly borrowed this from another Traditional source, author pre-1700, other than a few like Gadbury or Kepler(Modernes), was he not deviating or inventing concepts that he found worked for him even if Bonatus had warned that it wasn't kosher to do so?

And is this is a sense going too near the tree of Modernism if he didn't have a Traditional source?

IE. John Gadbury deviated in placing some romantic queries in the 5th where Lilly always placed them in the 7th, or one in the 11th for hopes and wishes. Gadbury even deviated by placing money earned by a player in gambling games in the 5th unlike Lilly who only allowed that if one owned the tavern or establishment where the gambling took place, as Lilly always used the 2nd for the earned money house if the individual was earning money from gambling and Not the owner of the saloon.

I mean if Lilly doesn't have the ammunition through traditional sources wasn't this almost heredical in that he deviated unless he has a source from Traditional authors or Ancients?

Unfortunately, even with Lilly's great bibliography of authors that he borrowed from, he like many writers then and today, he failed to quote or give credit when he mentioned different concepts in his great works. Footnote possibly weren't required in books of that time and even today writers do not always adhere to academic honesty by citing each concept and footnoting the author, source, and page; Future Writers Take Note!

But who could he have borrowed this from that many of you may have already read that justifies his deviation from Guildo Bonatus about answering his own horary?


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Does anyone know who was the first horary artist to start this trend of taking the time and location of when the querant asked to cast the horoscope from?

From what I understand in Lilly's 3rd house matters about taking the time one first heard the rumour, and the time taken of the 6th house individual laying down sick, and the 7th house 'stloen fish', they are all three event charts and not truly a horary.

In other words is there a Traditional source who took the time the querant asked rather than the time the artist understood the query?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

hi clinton,
did you listen to the interview i was asking about earlier? it is between brennan and johnston and at around the 55 minute mark where they discuss some of the history of horary and get into what i believe you are asking about.

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/07/ ... astrology/

Clinton Soule wrote:Does anyone know who was the first horary artist to start this trend of taking the time and location of when the querant asked to cast the horoscope from?

From what I understand in Lilly's 3rd house matters about taking the time one first heard the rumour, and the time taken of the 6th house individual laying down sick, and the 7th house 'stloen fish', they are all three event charts and not truly a horary.

In other words is there a Traditional source who took the time the querant asked rather than the time the artist understood the query?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Looking forward to listening to James' link, but the horary chart emerged in large part from the consultation chart, so was always, if you look at it this way, where the astrologer was when he was ready to interpret the charts or meet with the clients questions. Of course the client was ALSO there too :S

James_m stated:

hi clinton,
did you listen to the interview i was asking about earlier? it is between brennan and johnston and at around the 55 minute mark where they discuss some of the history of horary and get into what i believe you are asking about.

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/07/ ... astrology/

James_m, I'm afraid I may Not Be as computer literate as some, for I can't seem to find it unless it may be on Twitter or Facebook! Care to walk me through how to locate and open this?

Paul states:

Looking forward to listening to James' link, but the horary chart emerged in large part from the consultation chart, so was always, if you look at it this way, where the astrologer was when he was ready to interpret the charts or meet with the clients questions. Of course the client was ALSO there too :S

Except for when Lilly and other artists received mail the querant and artist were no doubt in speaking distance!

It appears that there has been a drifting away from the traditionalism in this concept as so many of today's horary artist are taking the time and location of when the querant asks.

I'm looking forward to Brennan and Johnston's discussion when I figure out how or where to open it!


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

hi clinton,

at the 55 minute mark or so of the talk is where there is some discussion that i thought you might find interesting. i think it does have to do with what paul was mentioning - the idea of using the time of a consultation, ie - a consultation chart, but don't quote me as it has been a while since i listened to this!

to listen to the talk, click on the link http://theastrologypodcast.com/2013/07/ ... astrology/

and once on that page scroll down to where it says -
Download or Stream the Podcast

You can either download this episode as an MP3 or play it directly from the website by using the buttons below:

you will see an image with a symbol with an arrow button directly below this quote i just bolded. hit the arrow button and hopefully it will play off your computer. if for some reason you are unable to do this, it might have something to do with the settings on your computer and you will have to ask a friend or someone who can look at the settings on your computer to help you out.. good luck!
james

Clinton if you still cannot find it, this link will download it:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/theastrologypod ... -ep009.mp3

Thanks ever so much James_M and Paul, I have watched it three times and I'm certain I will many more!

They bring out many points that many of us struggling students of astrologie have wondered about!