astrology - art or science?

1
i tend to think it is a bit of both, but i thought i would ask others here if they would like to share their own views on this.

there are so many astrological theories to choose from. the followers of these different theories claim they have some type of validity.

i am reminded of the philosophical idea that there are many different paths that can reach the top of the mountain.

i was reminded of this ongoing debate after reading a post today about 'orbs'.. one can fall back on a system that has been put in place from the past, or watch the interaction of the planets to see how it works in their own chart. observation is the basis for a scientific approach. i think we're handicapped by our own subjective approach in only being able to really consider our own experience in relation to astrology. this is why i think astrology is more art then science. i do think it is a bit of both though and there are certain astronomy laws that mirror dynamics in peoples life which is why i am a believer in astrology.

for me there's a obvious connection between astrology and psychology. both are outside the realm of 'hard' science in so far as they are difficult to impossible to reach objective 'scientific' conclusions on..

2
When I saw this I thought I liked the question until I began to ask myself what is art and what is science? I think we need to try and tie that down first before slotting astrology into one or the other

Let's start with some definitions


Science

putting aside the obvious fact that the work science just means knowledge , here are some modern interpretations obtained by (the dubious method of) random googling:
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws
Note it doesn't say these laws have to apply 100% - just generally

[the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment
- of course this then begs the question what is the physical and natural world..... :wink:

systematized knowledge in general
-

so pretty much anything in a text book!

Now clearly this is an area of some debate, so much so that.....
some scientists in 2009 came up with a new definition
Science is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."
http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog ... ncis-bacon



art
not scientific


helpful eh?!

A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities .... A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods


pretty vague and broad, could be applied to any activity repeated more than once - i.e scientists are all practising an art!

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, (typically [but is implied not always] in a visual form such as painting or sculpture), producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power
and
imaginative skill as applied to representations of the natural world or figments of the imagination
so presumably anything that is a creative representation rather than the 'real' world

and to confuse things even more
Learning; study; applied knowledge, [bold]science [/bold], or letters.
So, having initially thought it was a useful area to explore, I am now of the opinion that scientists practice an art and art can include science. So maybe we need to re-phrase the question in terms that are less overlapping?
"The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper" Eden Phillpotts

3
hi amelia,

thanks for offering your perspective here!

i had thought of this. the definitions of these words are not so simple.. on a somewhat related note - i am in the middle of reading a book by taleb nassim called 'antifragile'.. on the bottom of page 225 there is a footnote with a short quote connected to the text that i am going to share here as it captures asmall part of nassim's and my own thinking.

"It is just that what many call science is highly unscientific. Science is an anti-sucker problem."

i often make parallels with music and astrology due having spent much of my life involved in music. although there are rules in music connected to harmony and rhythm, knowing the rules makes for a good staring point but ultimately it is the sound that one wants to create that decides whether it has merit artistically to a composer/musician writing the music and especially for a listener.. listeners don't care whether musical rules have been followed or not!

an astrologer acts like a musician in some respects in bringing ideas to a person who is interested in what astrology might offer on any particular topic. some might say much hinges on the astrologer, as opposed to the astrology. perhaps the chemistry between the astrologer and person interested in an astrological perspective is equally or even more important here as well.. this is a bit like getting different results putting different musicians together..

those are a few more of my thoughts on this. perhaps you'd like to frame the question differently? if so - go ahead! i am still curious on yours or others thoughts on all this..

4
james_m,

I would call 'Astrology' as an 'Art' for a simple reason. :)

By calling it an 'Art' we would not be bothered by 'pseudo-scientists' who are not competent to make an 'inch' of progress in their own selected fields, however, they think that it is their prerogative to comment, discuss and pronounce judgments against the minority and helpless sections of society.

Our life in 20th and 21st century has been made easy by 'Inventors/ Technicians' rather than 'Scientists'.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

5
Unfortunately, the average lay person (including the average astrologer) would not know what science really means if s/he fell over it and it whistled Dixie.

Astrologers are consumers of the portions of astronomy and psychology (aka behavioural science) that suit their particular purposes. Unfortunately many are unable to distinguish between current science, pseudo-science, and outdated science.

How many people here have a B. S. (B. Sc.), M. S. (M. Sc.), let alone Ph. D. in a scientific field from an accredited university? If not, what is the depth of their scientific education?

6
sorry waybread, but i just couldn't resist!

Unfortunately, the average lay person (including the average scientist) would not know what astrology really means if s/he fell over it and it whistled Dixie.
Scientists are consumers of the portions of knowledge that suit their particular purposes. Unfortunately many are unable to distinguish between current astrology, pseudo-astrology, and outdated astrology.

How many people have a B. A. M. A., let alone Ph. D. in an astrological field from an accredited university? If not, what is the depth of their astrological education?
waybread wrote:Unfortunately, the average lay person (including the average astrologer) would not know what science really means if s/he fell over it and it whistled Dixie.

Astrologers are consumers of the portions of astronomy and psychology (aka behavioural science) that suit their particular purposes. Unfortunately many are unable to distinguish between current science, pseudo-science, and outdated science.

How many people here have a B. S. (B. Sc.), M. S. (M. Sc.), let alone Ph. D. in a scientific field from an accredited university? If not, what is the depth of their scientific education?

7
James, it's not a great joke, and it misses my point.

I don't think you mean to rehash the old unproductive argument that runs something like, "Why should we be nice to scientists if they won't play nicely with us?"

It would be nice if more astrologers had degrees from accredited universities and colleges.

8
I don't think you mean to rehash the old unproductive argument that runs something like, "Why should we be nice to scientists if they won't play nicely with us?"
The proof is not demanded by the main stream scientists. They have life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Now_You_See_Me_(film)

'Bradley' is a mediocre magician, unable to attain something in his performances, he turns to debunking them in order to earn some fame and money.

Everybody ought to be nice to Scientists as human beings only. We should only be wary of not throwing bones to the losers.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

9
hi waybread,

i am not opposed to rehashing anything really.. but it seems counter productive to try to prove something to someone who has their mind made up anyway.. that is how i see some people in this world for better or worse.. they have a viewpoint and they are unreceptive to a different or alternative way of perception and sometimes indignant that someone would have a different view on life and the nature of our world.

i'm not sold on formal education all the time either where someone has an abbreviation after their name with special letters and that gives them some more dignified or rarefied knowledge about something either.. i don't think formal education is all that it's cracked up to be!

waybread, speaking of missing the point, what are your thoughts on astrology as art or science?

10
Astrologers are consumers of some a narrow band of scientific information, but unless they happen to have actual credentials in a scientific field, they are not scientists. Science today is usually divided amongst the physical sciences (physics, chemistry;) natural sciences (biology, geology;) medical sciences; and perhaps behavioural science (the prefered term by some psychologists.) Of course, there is a lot of overlap between these broad-brush divisions. But astrology does not fit into any of them.

Science today is very different from what it was in Newton's time or even Einstein's time. It is usually done in teams of researchers, in laboratory or field situations, and the collected data are usually run through statistical tests. (Ahem. Usually, not always.) Psychologists (aka behavioural scientists) also use rigorous methodologies. Yes, there is theoretical work, and some famous scientists branch away from their true expertise in evolutionary biology or entymology to expound on more social topics, but they are not conducting science-- narrowly defined-- when they write books for mass audiences.

If we are working with the rigid binary of "art vs. science" you would have to classify astrology as an "art."

However, I don't think "art" is the exact word. There are many empirical fields that are not sciences. A historian or post-modern cultural anthropologist may be very concerned about getting her facts correct and subjecting them to rigorous analysis but this doesn't make her a scientist.

I think of astrology as an eclectic field similar in nature (though not in rigour) to the various "studies" fields out there, such as environmental studies, Canadian studies, or Renaissance studies. Or similar to fields with eclecticism built-in, such as comparative religion or urban and regional planning. Since astrology is usually (not always) applied, probably a discipline like planning would be the best analogy.

People who dismiss degrees often don't have them. The degree isn't about walking across the stage to pick up a diploma. Rather, the process that got the graduate to that point involved (or should have involved) honing of critical thinking skills and the ability to defend one's assertions with logic and evidence. This is true even for an arts field like theology or English literature.

Because astrology was orphaned from the academy for so long, it never really was required to develop along similar lines. It is coming back into a couple of British universities now, but as one of the humanities, not as a science.

11
thanks waybread.

i liked what you had to say and would agree with the view astrology is more art then science. i like to think of it that way as their is less emphasis for something to be proven, although i think at some point astrology will be seen as valid by a larger audience including the more skeptical, it is going to take a long time and a lot of curiousity on the part of anyone who makes a serious inquiry into astrology. most folks other then those with a love of astrology, don't approach it with the same level of curiousity and appreciation for the many ways it can be understood.

as for my comment on formal education - it's not just about the degrees but about the sale of institutionalized education around the planet at present.. it is not the only way to learn about something.. i am motivated partly by your comments and from reading a book at present called 'antifragile' by nassim taleb. he discusses this same issue and while i have to agree with his observations on this which i haven't articulated, it is a conversation for another topic perhaps.. it is interesting though to think of the astrological schools that have popped up in the past 10-20 years and the direction that this is taking astrology.

12
It is evident that people championing the cause of 'Science' have degrees in the Science. Only limited number of them do some useful laboratory work to have some distinction, the rest of them sour as they age because they have no other option but to teach. Advanced degrees in Accountancy give many options in life/career.

'Philosophy', is the only subject which sharpens reasoning and critical faculties. Majority of the scientists I know in life are racists, judgmental, having a myopic point of view and marked erroneous sense of self-importance.

I am also not impressed by those degrees in 'Astrology' where they assume you to be a working astrologer and what they actually offer is 'psychology, anthropology, cultural and historical studies. Individual astrologers offering courses where they teach/groom a limited number of students have more usefulness then the 'Institutionalized degrees'.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/