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quick question about profections

 
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: quick question about profections Reply with quote

I have been reading a lot about profections lately, and surprisingly, for such a simple concept I still find myself struggling to understand it well enough to use it. Although most of my inability to understand it more or less revolves around one major issue, which is, what form of the lord of the year are we expected to use? When I read about the lord of the year/profection ascendant (in countless numerous sources), they usually merely state to pay attention to the planet ruling the profection ascendant. Which is easy enough, but precisely which form of the planet is the most important to utilize? I know that I am supposed to consider the natal state of the lord of the year, but am I also expected to look at the profected position of the lord of the year as well? That is to say, assuming the profected ascendant was sagittarius, should I also consider the condition of profected jupiter? Or should I only pay heed to the condition of natal/transiting/solar return jupiter?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3480
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: quick question about profections Reply with quote

good question astronovice..

the book i am reading right now - persian nativities book 3 covers solar returns and profections and gives a very good explanation that i believe answers your question here..

using your example, take the position of jupiter in the natal chart to help formulate the basis of how jupiter will work as profected lord of the ascendant for that year.. considering jupiters position in the profected chart is really just an extension of what it is in the natal chart as i see it.. dovetailing this with the solar return chart for the year forms the basis of a chunk of the arabic approach to putting all these charts together. of course there are other considerations too like primary directions or time lord ideas that one has to get their head around.. it will depend on how much of this type of approach you want to incorporate, but overall primary consideration of the natal chart and the position of the planets and how they might express themselves in these predictive type charts form much of the basis of these considerations you ask about..

as i see it, an understanding the natal chart is the basis for understanding any predictive type chart you want to consider..

AstroNovice wrote:
I have been reading a lot about profections lately, and surprisingly, for such a simple concept I still find myself struggling to understand it well enough to use it. Although most of my inability to understand it more or less revolves around one major issue, which is, what form of the lord of the year are we expected to use? When I read about the lord of the year/profection ascendant (in countless numerous sources), they usually merely state to pay attention to the planet ruling the profection ascendant. Which is easy enough, but precisely which form of the planet is the most important to utilize? I know that I am supposed to consider the natal state of the lord of the year, but am I also expected to look at the profected position of the lord of the year as well? That is to say, assuming the profected ascendant was sagittarius, should I also consider the condition of profected jupiter? Or should I only pay heed to the condition of natal/transiting/solar return jupiter?
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 312

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The natal chart shows what is promised to the native. The profected chart ascertains whether those promises will be fulfilled during that year or not.
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: quick question about profections Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
good question astronovice..

the book i am reading right now - persian nativities book 3 covers solar returns and profections and gives a very good explanation that i believe answers your question here..

using your example, take the position of jupiter in the natal chart to help formulate the basis of how jupiter will work as profected lord of the ascendant for that year.. considering jupiters position in the profected chart is really just an extension of what it is in the natal chart as i see it.. dovetailing this with the solar return chart for the year forms the basis of a chunk of the arabic approach to putting all these charts together. of course there are other considerations too like primary directions or time lord ideas that one has to get their head around.. it will depend on how much of this type of approach you want to incorporate, but overall primary consideration of the natal chart and the position of the planets and how they might express themselves in these predictive type charts form much of the basis of these considerations you ask about..

as i see it, an understanding the natal chart is the basis for understanding any predictive type chart you want to consider..

AstroNovice wrote:
I have been reading a lot about profections lately, and surprisingly, for such a simple concept I still find myself struggling to understand it well enough to use it. Although most of my inability to understand it more or less revolves around one major issue, which is, what form of the lord of the year are we expected to use? When I read about the lord of the year/profection ascendant (in countless numerous sources), they usually merely state to pay attention to the planet ruling the profection ascendant. Which is easy enough, but precisely which form of the planet is the most important to utilize? I know that I am supposed to consider the natal state of the lord of the year, but am I also expected to look at the profected position of the lord of the year as well? That is to say, assuming the profected ascendant was sagittarius, should I also consider the condition of profected jupiter? Or should I only pay heed to the condition of natal/transiting/solar return jupiter?


ok so pretty mainly consider the state of the natal planet right? That being said, what if the profected ascendants profected ruler (not natal) conjuncts a natal planet, I would consider that as well right?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3480
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: quick question about profections Reply with quote

AstroNovice wrote:

ok so pretty mainly consider the state of the natal planet right? That being said, what if the profected ascendants profected ruler (not natal) conjuncts a natal planet, I would consider that as well right?


i am not fully convinced of the merits of profection charts, so maybe someone else will volunteer there perspective. it is only in the past 1-2 years that i have even considered them. the lord of the year may have some bearing. it is mildly borne out by my own experience. using the rest of the positions in the profection chart may have some merit but i haven't seen anything substantial at this point in my observations. ultimately one has to do the observing to see just how much of any of these 'astro theories' have relevance.

here is what i do.. if the lord of the year is jupiter, i would look at jupiters position in the natal chart to develop a feel for what the year would represent based on that..

to answer your question, what if the profected ruler conjuncts a natal planet ( in the profected chart or just the natal chart) - again - go back to the natal chart.. do the 2 planets in question form some type of relationship in the natal chart? if they do, i would be looking for confirmation of what their relationship in the natal chart implied.. if they don't, it would be less relevant... further to this - what are you seeing in the solar return chart? is jupiter making contact with this planet it is conjunct with in the profected or natal chart also in the solar return chart? if so it would merit more attention.. over all, it is the natal chart and the relationships that are established in the natal chart between the planets and etc. that forms the foundation for any insight into what might unfold in any of these extended predictive charts..

that said, astrologers have an amazing habit of looking at charts in hindsight to confirm their own bias.. i call that 'hindsight bias'. one astrologer will see one thing and another one will see another.. both will claim the reason for something in a different place - thus the relativity of all these different methods.. one needs to use something more then just the profected or solar return chart to get at what all of it might imply.. this goes right back to the natal chart and how well the person understands it!

i say the same thing when it comes to other predictive tools as well. for example on the edward snowden thread i asked for some feedback on what one thinks the primary direction of sun to saturn, or saturn to sun by square amounts to them.. of course i got no feedback, but the reason i asked this is the solar arc directions mimic the primary directions and - and this is a big and - the relationship in the natal chart of snowden contains a '''trine'' between the sun and saturn.. for me - the fact that the sun and saturn are involved in a trine in the natal chart gives a more positive spin on what these planets might mean coming together in the primary directions or solar arc directions.. of course his life is not going to be an easy one either way at this point as he is being hunted down.. it is only a matter of time and he will be used as another example to clamp down on anyone who says anything that endangers the government, no matter how far out of sync with the values they are supposed to represent.. anyway - the reason for this example is it is one i am watching in real time! i don't think even watching pds or solar arcs and going back to the natal chart is enough either! looking for a clue in the solar return or the profected chart, or the minor progressions which i like to use might strengthen or weaken a particular view i might get from any of these charts.. i would study the natal chart most closely for a good clue and of course i use transit data too which i think is very valuable and not just the transit data sitting in the solar return chart..
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hervaro



Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 111
Location: Antwerp, Be.

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what if the profected ascendants profected ruler (not natal) conjuncts a natal planet, I would consider that as well right?


In my understanding, if a profected planet (whether it be the Lord of the Year or another one) "hits" a natal planet, that natal planet takes over the job of the profected planet. If the profected LoY falls into a empty sign, the ruler of that sign would take over.

You may study and check Vettius Valens' Anthologies for this: in Book IV/17 you 'll find some pre-cooked readings for these "transmissions"...
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