Will I be able to travel and make my distination within four

1
The Querant asked:

Will I be able to travel within four days making my destination from point A to point B?

Time: 12:56 P.M.

Date: 8 / 8 / 2013

Place: Reno, Nevada . . . .119w49 . . .39n32


If one Does Not enlarge the horoscope(75% size) nor change the data in any way the horoscope tends to stay indefinitely and one can from this web page obtain the planet's speeds in the additional tables(PDF) and go to the 6000 year ephemeris pages.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid= ... &fix=1&ast

Anyone who who is successful in posting charts may do so as I'm a little inept to how to post on this forum!

Note: Scorpio is rising 7sco13 as the asc., as Saturn is separating from cjt the asc., Luna is sextiling Jupiter, and Jupiter is cjt the 9H cusp, Lilly's five degree rule, and as stated Luna is sextiling Zeus/Jupiter.

With the fixed sign of scorpio rising I can see why my querant who is older than many travelers is concerned about if the trip will take longer than four days and that devilish mars is also in the 9th in his fall at 17can31.

I'm truly liking the N. Node at 11sco37 which the asc is applying to in less than 5 degrees in cjt, as Lilly allowed 5 degrees of a planet to the north node.

The Moon sextiling Jupiter, the natural ruler of travel is saying a loud Yes. And I Do Not know where the former Moderne Anthony Louis got this, but Louis stated in his first book '...the aspect to the lord of the matter is like weather forecasting and a general indicator and typically correct about 85% of the time...' .

So far without giving Lilly's point count found on page 115 in CAII, to the query I'm seeing a Yes as Luna is lord of the matter making a nice sextile to Jupiter which cjts the 9H by Lilly's five degree rule'.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
Last edited by Clinton Soule on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2
Hi Clinton,

as you do not mention the distance of the journey, I assume it to be a short one in distance (and not only in time).

Jupiter, the significator of the journey is in a very bad state in his detriment and peregrine, but immediately before an apply?ng conjunction with Venus, significatrix of the querent in her terms. But more important, the Moon translates the light of Venus to Jupiter and thus is connection the main significators of the question.

As Jupiter is just in the beginning of the ninth house perhaps this could be seen as a further testimony of the perfection of the journey, because the 9th is the 7th from the 3rd, thus the point farthest away of the journeys beginning.

That the Moon is peregrine and will soon enter the 12th house, I see more as a testimony of the strong uncertainty of the querent and I doubt that this could be hindering the Moon from her supporting the soon beginning applying conjunction between Venus and Jupiter by translating both their lights.

Me not beeing at home now and lacking computing support, I am yet sure, that the Moon will reach the trine of Mars not before she comes to the square of Jupiter.

I hope, the querent has reached his destination meanwhile, the question of 19 May 2013 being rather old already?

Johannes

PS: I doubt that the querent, even though he could probably reach his destination in time, would be happy with the journey signified by such a badly (essentially) debilitated significator (Jupiter), and this rather unhappy Moon.
The 'gain' of the journey as a whole is signified by Saturn (2nd of the 3rd), retrograde and peregrine in Jupiter's term and just to leave it; this does not seem to be really promising, if at all it is approved to consider the gain of the journey in this context.
Lilly mentions, that authors (Arabs?) give severe warnings, to judge a question, as long as Saturn is debiltated in the first.
If my judgement should be wrong, I invoke these unnamed authors already now and preventively.

4
Thanks Geoffrey, someone must have tried to enlarge the image for if one tampers with it, it will disappear! If anyone would like to post this horoscope for easy view I'm much obliged!

This should be the map if no one trys to re-calculate or enlarge it, for it will then vanish!

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid= ... &fix=1&ast

From:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/sh ... p?p=492349

Post #5
But since this is a 950 mile trip by automobile, that could take at least two days to drive, yet the querant specified a maximum of 4 days is the goal, or parameter as there is a deadline to be met.

Years ago in the American Federation of Astrology office in Tempe, Az., Richard Nolle explained to me '...in the old days when travel was by foot, horses, ships, wagons, etc., anytime one took a trip overnight was considered long distance, thus the 9th house. Yet today a truck driver may see his route through several states as his neighborhood and only if he traveled into foreign countries would it be considered the 9th house.'

http://www.astropro.com/

Besides the 3rd is considered the neighborhood or immediate vicinity yet Lilly in CA doesn't put traveling queries in anything but the 9th.

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Christian Astrology--Volume 2--Word 2000

"The ninth HOUSE, and those QUESTIONS properly belonging unto it.
Long Journeys, Religion, Pilgrimage,Dreams, &c.

CHAP. LXXIV.

Of the short or slow returne of him that taketh a Journey.

Behold the Signifier of the Journey, if that Planet be swift in Course, Occidential, and Moon and he in movable Signes, it signifieth his Journey to be short, and not much tarrying from home, or a quick, speedy passage, yet with trouble and pain; but if he be swift, (viz. the Significator) in motion and [b]Orientall it shall be quick, short, and without any labour or much trouble[/b]: when the Lord of the ascendant doth apply unto the Lord of the house of Journeys, or when the Lord of the Journey applies to the Lord of the ascendant, or any Planet carryeth light of one to the other, or when the Lord of the house of Journeys is in the ascendant, or when the Lord of the 7th is in the ascendant, or the Lord of the ascendant in the 7th; all these doe signifie short returne, or good speed according to the length of the Voyage: But if none of these be, or the greater part of the said Significators be in angles, especially in fixed Signes, it signifieth either destruction of his Journey, or else slow, or to be a great while absent: If a Fortune be in the house of Journeys, it signifieth health of body; a good Fortune in the Mid-heaven signifieth mirth and jollity, or gladnesse in his journey, or that he shall have good company: in the 7th and 4th, it signifieth prosperity, and a good end of the Journey or Voyage.

If the Lord of the house of Journeys be in a fixed Signe, it signifieth continuance and long tarrying: in a common Signe, it signifieth he shall change his mind from his first intended thoughts, or remove from one journey to another.

If the Moon in questions of Journeys, be in the 6th, or in Opposition to the Lord of the 6th, it shewes sicknesse to him that travels, and impediments in his occasions, and that his businesse shall be for the most part feeble, weak and slackly handled, his endeavours and designes shall be much crossed; yet if the Lord of the ascendant be fortunate, or in the house of trust, or not opposite to the same, it signifieth successe and prosperity, and the accomplishing of his businesse, though with many difficulties and obstructions."

Bold added for emphasis of what this particular horary has in correlation with Lilly's 9H example. Underlined '..house of trust', is what I'm questioning, for is the house of trust the 2nd, 7th, or 10th, I'm not quite certain of this phrase!

There is Not a mutual reception here as though Zeus/Jupiter is in Diana's/Moon's dignity being the crab/Cancer is on the 9th, but Zeus/Jupiter is not in any way comfortable with where Luna is as Lady Diana/Moon which is Not nice for Jupiter to be in!

Utilizing Lilly's Dignity & Debility method, his Point Count found on page 115 of CAII, we have:

Moon increasing(waxing) +2
Luna Peregrine -5
Luna Not Combust, nor under Beams +5
Diana/Moon(slow 12deg. 27m per day) -2

Now this one gets me for Luna is less than 19 minutes from being in the
same degree as Zeus/ Jupiter which if they were would be a Partile Sextile and worth in Lilly's point method a great +4
__________________________________________________ ___________
+7 Fortitudes Verses -7 Debilities
{if I can hedge this 19 minutes, that is just too close} +7 +4 = +11 (???) verses -7 debilitated

As one can see as Zeus is in so close a sextile with the Peregrine Moon, Luna lord of the 9th, it looks somewhat promising though there are obstacles on this one as many of you can see.
Johannes stated:
Jupiter, the significator of the journey is in a very bad state in his detriment and peregrine, but immediately before an apply?ng conjunction with Venus, significatrix of the querent in her terms. But more important, the Moon translates the light of Venus to Jupiter and thus is connection the main significators of the question.
Johannes, maybe I misunderstand, and you said 'you were away from your computer momentarily or with little access at the moment', but I understand Jupiter is the natural ruler of the 9H as Lilly describes in 'the Houses' in CAI, but did you mean Moon here instead of Jupiter? For I know on posts you rarely make a mistake, and are always quick to point out mine which I truly appreciate, always.

I mean Jupiter is in his exaltation in Cancer, and on the cusp of the 9th, where Lilly's five degree rule applies. But Luna, lord of the 9H, is Peregrine, even though she is only 19 minutes from making a Partile Sextile to Jupiter. Which I want to hedge as like Lilly didn't always follow Al Biruni's table of Moieties and orbs, he stretched it some as I understand.

Johannes:
As Jupiter is just in the beginning of the ninth house perhaps this could be seen as a further testimony of the perfection of the journey, because the 9th is the 7th from the 3rd, thus the point farthest away of the journeys beginning.
Johannes, are you saying the beginning of the journey is the 3rd, I was under the impression that if we rotate the map the derived house is the 9th which becomes the asc of the matter. Yes, Saturn on the asc. sure shows the Querant is in a bad way and the horary is with hindrance, difficulty, problems, obstruction, limitations, etc.. .

Johannes:
That the Moon is peregrine and will soon enter the 12th house, I see more as a testimony of the strong uncertainty of the querent and I doubt that this could be hindering the Moon from her supporting the soon beginning applying conjunction between Venus and Jupiter by translating both their lights.

SNIP.......

I hope, the querent has reached his destination meanwhile, the question of 19 May 2013 being rather old already?
Yes the querant has expressed much uncertainty about this journey. But Johannes it's not May 19th, I'm Not following you on that in that the query was asked August 8th!

I know it's terrible being away from your base without your own computer in front of you.


Clinton Garret Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

5
Clinton, when I tried to judge your question, I relied on the wrong chart (19 May 2013, 4:46 pm, Taos, NM) your link was still giving at that time.

Thus both my judgment and your comment can only be but wrongly.

Johannes

6
Saturn, lord of the 3rd, is very near to the ascendant, thus suggesting this trip to be a short journey even though it is more than 900 (?) miles of length? Then Mars, lord of the 1st, and Saturn could be connected by the Moon's translating both their lights. But in doing this she is hindered by her arriving at the sextile of Jupiter, lord or the 2nd and 5th, very soon.

But in my opinion the question concerns a long journey because of the length of the distance; and then the Moon, lady of the 9th, is hindered in the same way, as described above, to perfect her sextile with Mars by the sextile of Jupiter.

This is why I doubt that the querent will start his journey at all, or, if he does that he will reach the destiny point in the planned way.
Reasons for this could be:
He has overesteemed his money and cannot afford the trip; he has underesteemed his money and can fly; the car cannot go thus far; his child/children prohibit the journey.

Johannes

7
Johannes stated:
Saturn, lord of the 3rd, is very near to the ascendant, thus suggesting this trip to be a short journey even though it is more than 900 (?) miles of length? Then Mars, lord of the 1st, and Saturn could be connected by the Moon's translating both their lights. But in doing this she is hindered by her arriving at the sextile of Jupiter, lord or the 2nd and 5th, very soon.
Johannes, as you possibly know and astro brother Paul, our Moderator, I have not as of yet read nor studied Frawley's works; this must be a John Frawley methods or Lilly's 3rd house *Short Trips* to my knowledge Lilly only uses the 9th for long distance travel.

As I understand about short distance:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=66603
But since this is a 950 mile trip by automobile, that could take at least two days to drive, yet the querant speacified a maximum of 4 days is the goal, or parameter as there is a deadline to be met.

Years ago in the American Federation of Astrology office in Tempe, Az., Richard Nolle explained to me '...in the old days when travel was by foot, horses, ships, wagons, etc., anytime one took a trip overnight was considered long distance, thus the 9th house. Yet today a truck driver may see his route through several states as his neighborhood and only if he traveled into foreign countries would it be considered the 9th house.'

http://www.astropro.com/

Johannes says:
But in my opinion the question concerns a long journey because of the length of the distance; and then the Moon, lady of the 9th, is hindered in the same way, as described above, to perfect her sextile with Mars by the sextile of Jupiter.
Yes, I was reviewing Lilly's CA last night, and there are at least two queries of the 9th house matters that this horary relates to; maybe even three. I have already posted one, and this is the other one:

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Christian Astrology--Volume 2--Word 2000

"The ninth HOUSE, and those QUESTIONS properly belonging unto it.
Long Journeys, Religion, Pilgrimage,Dreams, &c.

CHAP. LXXIV. , page 428
Length thereof.

If the Lord of the 9th be in the ascendant, or the Lord of the ascendant in the 9th, it hasteneth the journey; the Lord of the ascendant in the 7th, idem.; the Significators on cadent houses, or in movable Signes, or the angles movable, idem.: But if the angles be fixed, and the Significators posited therein, it prolongeth the journey: the Lord of the 9th in the ascendant, hasteneth the journey, and being fortunate therein, fortunateth the same Voyage, the Significators and Moon slow in motion, a tedious Journey.
Bold words represent what Lilly states that applies to this horary!

In CA I, Chapter XIII, page 80, Lilly states:

"...Moon when she is slow in motion and goeth less in 24 hours than 13 degrees and 10 minutes she is then equivalent to a rectrograde planet."

In this particular horary Luna is at a speed of 12 degrees and 29 minutes 55 seconds, far under the 13 degrees and 10 minutes that Lilly speaks of so the Moon who never rectrogrades is read as if she does from this horary and she is the lord of the 9H of long distance travel.

Also, Johanness and beloved Forum members, as you have stated Johannes, Lilly strongly confirms about Saturn on the Asc., as in:

CA I, page 122:

"If Saturn be in the Ascendant espeacially rectrograde, the matter of the question seldom or never comes to good."

Johannes:
This is why I doubt that the querent will start his journey at all, or, if he does that he will reach the destiny point in the planned way.
Reasons for this could be:
He has overesteemed his money and cannot afford the trip; he has underesteemed his money and can fly; the car cannot go thus far; his child/children prohibit the journey.
Well from what I know the querant has no children, yet money was or is an issue and that is possibly why the querant is not taking a flight, but the querant is planning to take the journey out of commitment for a certain cause.

Some notes on the trip:

1)Scorpio rising, we know Lilly taught that fixed signs on the angles are slow and persistent.

But in this particular horary the trip begins for the querant in Montana, USA, and the State of Montana is Scorpio as in:

http://www.astromark.us/FREEelineState.pdf
Montana, Sun Scorpio, Moon Taurus
2) Querant will be coming from a Plain's Indian reservation, and presently I can not find any information on the webb, but years ago I read the plain's tribes were ruled by Scorpio, and the reverence for the eagle and their historic military warrior cultures strongly exhibits this.

3)In CA I , page 83, Lilly talks about weather conditions, "...with Saturn cold ayre...with Mars winds and red clouds, with Venus and Mercury showers and winds.."

So I'm thinking as here in Reno, Nv. the weather has certainly cooled down as possibly the entire American West, and we have had some rain which is unusual for this time of year, but I think the querent will experience a cold snap with Saturn on his asc., and high winds due to Mars, and with Luna coming into a wide cjt. to Venus, maybe travelling in some rainy conditions.

Johannes, correct me on this, isn't the Moon opposite the Traditional Oreintal and Occidental definition, in that Luna is Oreintal from opposition to the conjunction, and Occidental from cjt to the opposition?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

8
Clinton Soule wrote: Johannes, correct me on this, isn't the Moon opposite the Traditional Oreintal and Occidental definition, in that Luna is Oreintal from opposition to the conjunction, and Occidental from cjt to the opposition?
To the best of my remembrance it is just the contrary: from the conjunction to the opposition - oriental, and from the opposition to the conjuncption - occidental.

But are there not authors claiming the first 90 degrees to be oriental, next 90 degrees (up to the opposition) occidental, then oriental and at last (up to the conjunction) occidental again?

But is this of importance in this context?

Johannes

9
Johannes stated:
Clinton Soule wrote:

"Johannes, correct me on this, isn't the Moon opposite the Traditional Oreintal and Occidental definition, in that Luna is Oreintal from opposition to the conjunction, and Occidental from cjt to the opposition?"

Johannes:

To the best of my remembrance it is just the contrary: from the conjunction to the opposition - oriental, and from the opposition to the conjuncption - occidental.
Well this may be a misunderstood concept as in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictiona ... iental.php
Definition of Occidental or OrientalThese terms have various meanings, when differently applied; as: (1) The Moon is oriental of the Sun when it is increasing in light, from the lunation to the full; occidental of the Sun, when decreasing in light. (2) A planet is said to be oriental of the Sun when it rises and sets before the Sun; occidental of the Sun, when it rises and sets after the Sun. Planets are said to be stronger when oriental of the Sun and occidental of the Moon.
But this thread may explain this uncertainty:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2101

Note Tony Louis speaks of Lilly's insights, the 3rd post:
The Moon is Oriental of the Sun from the time of her opposition to the conjunction, and Occidental from the time of her Conjunction to Opposition; and the reason hereof is, because she far exceeds the Sun in swiftness of motion, and so presently gets further into the Sign, &c."
Finally Lilly takes up the case of the Moon. Here he says "The Moon is Oriental of the Sun from the time of her opposition to the conjunction, and Occidental from the time of her Conjunction to Opposition; and the reason hereof is, because she far exceeds the Sun in swiftness of motion, and so presently gets further into the Sign, &c." From the Full Moon to the New Moon, the Moon is oriental. From the New Moon to the Full Moon, the Moon is occidental. For example, if the Full Moon occurs at 15 Libra (Sun at 15 Aries), the next day the Moon will be at about 28 Libra and the Sun at 16 Aries. At sunrise the next day, the Moon will be above the western horizon and will have risen before the Sun. Two days later, the Sun will be at 17 Aries and the Moon at 11 Scorpio. Over the course of 14 days, the Moon will gradually approach the conjunction with the Sun and will rise before the Sun. At the New Moon, they will rise together, after the New Moon, the Moon will rise after the Sun until the time of the next Full Moon. It is important to note that the Moon travels faster thant he sun, which is why it rises before the sun from the time of its opposition till the next conjunction with the sun.
Johannes, I had thought I had read that the Moon was contrary in CA the other night, as this will ruin and contradict my point count if I'm utilizing Lilly's point method correctly, as now the scales are tilted negative there is no way the querant can make it in four days on the trip.

In that Luna in this horary, Luna is increasing in light and Not Oreintal as Tony Louis states that Lilly taught it's the opposite?

Is Tony Louis, short for Anthony Louis?

If so he is getting more Traditional!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

10
As the matter is travel and the query is asking about travel in four days or less of 950 miles by vehicle this by Lilly applies:
Length thereof.

If the Lord of the 9th be in the ascendant, or the Lord of the ascendant in the 9th, it hasteneth the journey; the Lord of the ascendant in the 7th, idem.; the Significators on cadent houses, or in movable Signes, or the angles movable, idem.: But if the angles be fixed, and the Significators posited therein, it prolongeth the journey: the Lord of the 9th in the ascendant, hasteneth the journey, and being fortunate therein, fortunateth the same Voyage, the Significators and Moon slow in motion, a tedious Journey.
Boldness, Itallics, and underlining added for emphasis of what applies in this horary from Lilly's document.

My original hypothesis using Lilly's point count was:
Utilizing Lilly's Dignity & Debility method, his Point Count found on page 115 of CAII, we have:

Moon increasing(waxing) +2
Luna Peregrine -5
Luna Not Combust, nor under Beams +5
Diana/Moon(slow 12deg. 27m per day) -2

Now this one gets me for Luna is less than 19 minutes from being in the
same degree as Zeus/ Jupiter which if they were would be a Partile Sextile and worth in Lilly's point method a great +4
__________________________________________________ ___________
+7 Fortitudes Verses -7 Debilities
{if I can hedge this 19 minutes, that is just too close} +7 +4 = +11 (???) verses -7 debilitated
However in viewing Lilly's concept of the Moon at less than 3 degrees and 10 minutes as noted in:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7737
In CA I, Chapter XIII, page 80, Lilly states:

"...Moon when she is slow in motion and goeth less in 24 hours than 13 degrees and 10 minutes she is then equivalent to a rectrograde planet."

In this particular horary Luna is at a speed of 12 degrees and 29 minutes 55 seconds, far under the 13 degrees and 10 minutes that Lilly speaks of so the Moon who never rectrogrades is read as if she does from this horary and she is the lord of the 9H of long distance travel.
So observing the Moon to be read as Rx, this is the new point count:

Moon increasing(waxing) +2
Luna, lord of matter, Peregrine -5
Luna Not Combust, nor under beams +5
Moon read as Rx -5
Moon <19' from same degree Partile Sextile to Jupiter+4

= +1 (I doubt Lilly would accept this as significant in points, so it's NO)

Does anyone have anything to add from this horary that is so close in someways and negative in others? For I see the querant may arrive close or a little over 4 days but not within the parameter of four days!


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

12
Johannes,

The querant says they are leaving the point A in Montana, USA on the 19th of August to arrive at point B.

I have explained how doubtful that the trip can be made within 4 days.

Johannes, what do you see in relation to the horary about the departure time and arrival?

And Yes, I know I need to digest Lilly and his sources deeper than I have!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know