I have been studying the Hellenistic configuration doctrine (aspects and the like) and have stumbled on the meaning of the Greek word aktinobeleo. Usually this is translated as Casting a ray, but also Hurling or Striking a ray.

The key issue at stake is that the planet that is EARLIER in Zodiacal order--that is, that is earlier in a counterclockwise position on a chart--is SUPERIOR (or Prevailing or Overcoming) to a planet later in zodiacal order. Thus, for example, Jupiter in Gemini is Prevailing/Overcoming/Superior to a Sun in Virgo (10th House Square of Domination, but that's another fun topic!!).

Suppose, however, that Mars or Saturn is in Libra--in a Trine to Jupiter in Gemini. Does Mars or Libra 'Cast/Hurl/Strike a Ray' BACK to Jupiter?

It would seem that it does--if that is the case, then what is the nature of that ray? Porphyry seems to indicate that with a malefic casting a ray, it could be 'anaertic'--deadly or destructive--obviously not a good thing! Rhetorius seems rather silent on its nature.

But then, a ray CAN cause harm back, what the 'bleep' is the point of even having a definition or doctrine of 'prevailing' or 'overcoming' or superiority in the first place? It seems like Casting/Hurling/Striking a ray almost cancels out the point of the superior aspect of the planet EARLIER in zodiacal order!

Any thoughts on this? I know that there is some thoughts that this is only used in certain projection and predictive techniques, and perhaps that's where it belongs. But if it is not limited there, then I am confused, if not annoyed!

Thanks, JP

Suppose, however, that Mars or Saturn is in Libra--in a Trine to Jupiter in Gemini. Does Mars or Libra 'Cast/Hurl/Strike a Ray' BACK to Jupiter?

The example is not a good one, because Mars, when in Libra, will be the one doing the 'hurling' at Jupiter in Gemini. Jupiter will be the one doing the 'seeing'.

Holden's translation of Porphyry gives a more detailed explanation (24), but it's useful to compare with Schmidt's translation of Hephaistio's Apotelesmatics (16). There we get the same principle explained, but in the previous passage (15) on enclosure, we appear to get the contradiction you refer to - being told that Mars in Aries can send rays back to Leo by trine. But notice that a different word is being used for what s translated as "send" in this instance (pempso), which seems to have a much more generic meaning; so this might just mean "apply to" or "send towards" (as when one planet applies to another) rather than the connotations of force expected when the word aktinobeleo is used.

The notion gets carried forward in later tradition through the distinction of dexter and sinister aspects. Dexter aspects, being the ones that are cast to planets on the right (eg, from Aries to Capricorn) are considered stronger and more forceful than sinister aspects - these are the ones that would involve a 'hurling of rays'. Those that are cast to planets on the left (eg, from Capricorn to Aries) are weaker and more passive - these are the ones that receive (or see) the ray that is hurled towards them.

Although this article is quite dated now and in need of an update to reference the Hellenistic principle of rays being hurled or viewed, in might help you see how the principles connect:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#sd

Hope this helps,
Deb

Thanks Deb! This was very helpful.

I think your mention of Hephaistio helps out quite a bit, actually. I should also be clear that I am viewing this from the Hellenistic perspective, knowing that Lilly and others in traditions that succeeded the Hellenistic prioritized other features, as you indicate in your response.

But let me clarify my question/example a bit and then also use the example chart in the older posting you sent.

In a chart with Jupiter in Gemini, AND Mars or Saturn in Libra (configured by Trine to Jupiter, of course), Jupiter is in the Superior position and 'seeing' (even dominating) Mars or Saturn. And I think you are agreeing that Mars or Saturn will ALSO hurl/cast/strike rays back to Jupiter, despite Jupiter 'seeing' and being Superior to Mars/Saturn in Libra, correct?

Or take the example of the chart you linked to:

Venus in Libra is earlier in zodiacal order and hence Superior to Saturn in Aquarius--BUT, does Saturn then Hurl/Cast/Strike rays BACK to Venus? And what are its effects? Does this cancel out the positive benefits of Venus' domination?

That seems to be 'an' implication (if not THE implication), at least in Porphyry's relatively long definition in 24. I do not have Schmidt's Apotelesmatics, but even Rhetorius is much vaguer as to the nature or potential nature of the Hurled/Cast Ray.

Given your response and the seemingly neutral term 'pempso' in the original Greek in Hephaisto as translated by Schmidt, perhaps we shouldn't make much of casting/hurling/striking of rays and simply focus on the Superior posited planet's domination and 'seeing'.

Then again, what's the point of even mentioning the concept of Hurling/Casting Rays? Is it to give 'wiggle room' for interpretation? Perhaps it is up to an individual astrologer to examine such configurations in each chart with each individual and his or her life, events, and circumstances?

Thanks so much again, for this, and all your other work!

hi jp,

i am going to comment with the idea of learning something here from anyone else reading.. as i understand it there is a great emphasis on sect in hellenistic astrology which is not present in later schools of astrology.. as a consequence - the sect light and the planets connected to the sect light are very important considerations to this concept you ask about..

as i understand it one would look at the sect light - sun or moon and see how the other diurnal or nocturnal planets connect with the sect light. as i understand it saturn, jupiter and possibly mercury (if it is oriental) can act as supporting planets to the sun if they are in a position earlier in the zodiac. the opposite is the case with the moon which relies on the role of mars, venus and mercury if occidental where these same nocturnal planets must be ahead of the moon along the zodiac circle..

in the examples you've given the planets are of a different sect and they don't relate back to the main sect light. this is my basic understanding of this concept of hurling or casting rays - doryphory is the term that i believe is used for this.

the concept of 'overcoming' is a separate one as i know it.

Thanks James!

Doryphory refers to 'spear-bearing', which is a different concept of how a planet can be greatly helped by its 'spear-bearers.' And as I understand it, sect plays a HUGE role in that one. And you seem to describe it quite well!

While there are elements of 'casting or hurling' rays in at least one of the three types of doryphory, I am struggling with the basic application of
Aktinobeleo, or 'hurling a ray' in any context, or any configuration/aspect.

What is confusing me now is how to relate aktinoboleo to the concept of 'overcoming', or a planet 'seeing' another planet from a superior position, and dominating it--even though the planet in the inferior position HURLS rays back at that superior planet.

hi jp,

did you see this thread on 'overcoming'? i thought it covered the concept quite well.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... overcoming

casting or hurling a ray sounds like another way of saying 'making an aspect' but more graphic.. perhaps casting is used for planets in front, while hurling is used for describing planets behind in the zodiac.. i don't know! the words seem similar to me! at any rate i don't think you can separate these ideas from the important consideration of sect in a chart as i think this was a fundamental consideration for astrologers of the hellenistic period..

mars is making an aspect to jupiter by trine which would be another important consideration to keep in mind as the trine was generally viewed favourably. if the malefic was involved in a square or opposition aspect i think it would make it more 'malefic' or challenging due this important consideration. mars and jupiter are in signs of detriment or exile to themselves as well which throws more light on this aspect you ask about.. i am not sure how much of an important consideration this would also be to hellenistic astrologers.

JPskyman wrote:
The key issue at stake is that the planet that is EARLIER in Zodiacal order--that is, that is earlier in a counterclockwise position on a chart--is SUPERIOR (or Prevailing or Overcoming) to a planet later in zodiacal order. Thus, for example, Jupiter in Gemini is Prevailing/Overcoming/Superior to a Sun in Virgo (10th House Square of Domination, but that's another fun topic!!).

Suppose, however, that Mars or Saturn is in Libra--in a Trine to Jupiter in Gemini. Does Mars or Libra 'Cast/Hurl/Strike a Ray' BACK to Jupiter?

I know that there is some thoughts that this is only used in certain projection and predictive techniques, and perhaps that's where it belongs.

Thanks, JP

Ha-- YES, you hit on a lot in this response!

I agree that at first blush the example of Mars Trine Jupiter is 'just another way of saying it's an aspect.' And I think that that is fine for most people. But I think the Hellenistic astrologers wanted to distinguish the kinds of configurations as best as they can. And one way is through 'overcoming' or 'prevailing' in which the planet earlier in zodiacal order overcomes/prevails the planet in the later sign.

And then the Hurling/Casting/Striking of Rays hit...

I think you really helped by reminding me about trines/sextiles:

"mars is making an aspect to jupiter by trine which would be another important consideration to keep in mind as the trine was generally viewed favourably. if the malefic was involved in a square or opposition aspect i think it would make it more 'malefic' or challenging due this important consideration."

And I think that explains at least PART of the ambiguity. So in my example, the Trine Ray cast back to Jupiter from Mars is harmless or innocuous.

But what about the example from the chart that was in the link that Deb linked to? Note that Saturn is in Aquarius and Inferior to the configurations that come earlier--not just the Trine (harmless) to Venus in Libra, but the Sun, Mercury, and Jupiter in Scorpio--by SQUARE! That configuration is VERY powerful, as Sun, Mercury, and Jupiter are 'On the Tenth"--one of the best configurations you could possibly have, at least according to the Hellenistic approach.

But, if Saturn is hurling a Square ray BACK to those, and Maltreating and Afflicting them, how are we to interpret this?!?!? We can not simply dismiss it as a benefic trine or sextile--this is a mean, nasty Square--and it means business, with Saturn!

So what do we do?

I hate to say, this, but I think I am actually enjoying figuring this all out!![/quote]

hi jp,

i hadn't opened the link deb shared, until you asked some questions about the chart in it from valens 108 AD in this post.

aside from asking for others input which hasn't been forthcoming yet(with the exception of debs comment) - i have pointed out i see a lot of this as another way of saying planets are making aspects with one another and that depending on the aspect - deb used the medieval choice of words - dexter and sinister - you can call them overcoming as well if you want to give it a hellenistic term! main thing is to understand what the lingo is supposed to mean.. the way i understand it, it means one can make a few distinctions with aspects so that a square is not just a square, but an aspect where one planet has more of a dominant position to the other - thus the overcoming word.. i think it can apply to a planet in a 9th or 11th house position as well, but i don't see that discussed much if any..

in the chart example - the sun/jupiter/mercury in scorpio dominates or overcomes the saturn.. saturn in turn overcomes the moon.. i think mars is in a dominant position in relation to the sun/jupiter/mercury as well as the saturn as well.. mars happens to rule the scorpio planets and is strong by phase as well.. plus it is a nocturnal chart where mars makes a good connection to the sect ruler moon.. the main conflict of the chart as i see it is saturn in that overcoming square to the moon from the 7th.. as i understand it in hellenistic astrology accidental dignity counts for more then essential dignity.. saturn in the 7th and in the sign aquarius is strong on a few counts. same deal with the moon in the 10th and in taurus!

so, were are we with all the terminology in terms of understanding the relationships in that 108 AD chart better? i still think a square represents conflict or challenges between the planets involved in the square. one could think of challenges as representing a good thing for motivating a person to get their act together, something the easy aspects don't do.. this is my understanding of modern astrology though and it has nothing to do with the concept of 'overcoming'! maybe someone else will comment or these hellenistic ideas are in jeopardy of ceasing to be relevant!

JPskyman wrote:
But what about the example from the chart that was in the link that Deb linked to? Note that Saturn is in Aquarius and Inferior to the configurations that come earlier--not just the Trine (harmless) to Venus in Libra, but the Sun, Mercury, and Jupiter in Scorpio--by SQUARE! That configuration is VERY powerful, as Sun, Mercury, and Jupiter are 'On the Tenth"--one of the best configurations you could possibly have, at least according to the Hellenistic approach.

But, if Saturn is hurling a Square ray BACK to those, and Maltreating and Afflicting them, how are we to interpret this?!?!? We can not simply dismiss it as a benefic trine or sextile--this is a mean, nasty Square--and it means business, with Saturn!

So what do we do?

JPskyman wrote:Ha-- YES, you hit on a lot in this response!

I agree that at first blush the example of Mars Trine Jupiter is 'just another way of saying it's an aspect.' And I think that that is fine for most people.

But I think the Hellenistic astrologers wanted to distinguish the kinds of configurations as best as they can.

And one way is through 'overcoming' or 'prevailing' in which the planet earlier in zodiacal order overcomes/prevails the planet in the later sign.

And then the Hurling/Casting/Striking of Rays hit...

.....
I hate to say, this, but I think I am actually enjoying figuring this all out!!

Or, in any era or epoch, there is a way of writing things-fashion or tradition.
In Jyotish- each sign is divided into 60 parts and each of them have a separate name.
That is why all epics are similar because they have to have all the humours to be called an epic.

Keep it going, I am enjoying this stellar Greeko-Roman WWF wrestle mania

PD