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Johannes Susato wrote:
I wonder, if anyone could tell us, how in a king's or queen's chart the houses are allotted to.

Especially I should like to know, where the population of the state or country, and the common people, the subjects could be found therein. Johannes
Hi Johannes,

I cant recall seeing this being discussed anywhere in purely natal terms as you suggest. However, I guess in the medieval period numerous astrologers must have been consulted by monarchs and therefore will have had to consider such issues. I suspect some of the Perso-Arabic sources might have comments on this but have no time to check this out at present.

I would speculate that a monarch's subjects and the relationship with them to be reflected in the Moon and possibly (?) the 6th house as it is the traditional house of slaves, subordinates, employees etc. For someone born as a royal I would assume the 10th house gives us a clear indicator of their Kingship along with the Sun as the natural significator for this. Saturn in natural terms would represent the poor and 'underclass'. Jupiter along with the 9th house relations with the Church etc. The Kings supporters (resources) would be the 2nd the 11th (benefactors) house.

More commonly one sees these house associations in mundane terms in ingress charts which obviously developed long before the era of the national chart.

Here is a piece by Deborah Houlding that sets out the standard interpretation of houses in ingress scharts which is consistent with 17th century sources like Lilly.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html

Perso-Arabic astrologers such as Abu Ma'shar would also give a lot of attention to the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction prior to the creation of a dynasty.

You have reminded me I have chart to post on the Windsor dynasty!

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Should we look at the grand conjunction prior to the dynasty then?
Hi Mathew,

According to the great Perso-Arabic astrologers such as Al Kindi, Abu Ma'shar or Masha'allah' most definitely yes. European renaissance astrologers also made extensive use of this planetary cycle in assessing world events.

For example Abu Ma'shar in his work Book on Religions and Dynasties and Book of the Indications of the Planetary Conjunctions discusses the rise and fall of dynasties tied to the proceeding Jupiter-Saturn Conjunctions. It is also suggested that a change in triplicity in the conjunctions can represent a transformation in religious culture such as the founding of a new religion. Hence Islam is traditionally linked to a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Scorpio of 571CE close to the birth date of the Prophet Muhammed. Similarly, the rise of Protestantism can be associated with the Saturn-Jupiter conjunction in scorpio of 1584. Martin Luther was born a year before the actual conjunction in November 1483.

Bear in mind though in that era they lacked the kind of astronomical sophistication to be able draw up up a precise chart for the actual conjunction.

So instead they looked at the prior Aries ingress before the conjunction.

In addition an idiosyncracy of Abu Ma'shar is that he used a symbolic calculation of the movement of the outer planets that didn't reflect their actual movement in real time. However, even other medieval astrologers such as Ibn Ezra criticised him for that.

I agree with astrologers like John Frawley that nowadays its more practical to look at the chart for the actual conjunction rather than use the ingress chart.

The problem with the British royal family is when did the 'dynasty' begin? Some might argue we need to go back to the earliest Anglo-Saxon Kings.Others suggest the Norman Conquest in 1066 marks the beginning of the current royal dynasty. However, in 1603 the English and Scottish royal dynasties came together for the first time. Arguably this was the foundation of a British as opposed to an English monarchy. Should this be our key date?

Following the end of Stuart Dynasty we then then have a line of Hanoverian Kings from Germany. However the proclamation of the House of Windsor in 1917 arguably marks a departure from that process. I have tried to draw up a timed chart for this which I have displayed on the thread for Prince George but I am sure the conjunction chart is well worth investigation too. I also think the 1603 chart could be used for the British monarchy in general. Interestingly, this date was close to a change of triplicity in Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions with the move into the fire triplicity. One could also link this JSC to the rise of the British Empire.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Hi Mark and Methew,

thanks for these interessant texts.

But my point is, to know the allotment of the houses in the personal chart of a king or queen. All techniques you mention are surely necessary and inevitable to know the circumstances in a state itself, and I think this is the concern of the quotation of Lilly/Deb and your comment, Mark.

But the fortune and life of the king and/or queen (and their subjects possibly) are they not more precisely to be seen from their personal radices?

Johannes