31
Yes, Therese - using Yoga?s could be a minefield.

I?d start simple; using Jaimini and the upcoming British election.

Wilhelm has correctly predicted 8/10 American elections using Yogada?s and the Vimshottari Dasa.

The D1, D3 & D9 varga charts would throw up different Rasi aspects for both the Tropical and Sidereal zodiac.

Maybe someone can think of a way to test the super accurate Kalachakra dasa against the closing poll time of 10pm, 7th May 2015.

I guess one would have to rectify the 4 main leaders birth times through the D40, D45 & D60 vargas to ensure super accurate data.

This study could then be applied to previous British election data.

Just some thoughts.
If it's not astronomically true, it's not astrologically true.

32
Hi to everyone

I m new to this forum, and I have switched from sidereal signs to tropical about 5 years ago, like Ryan, whom I know from the E. Wilhelm forum (Hi Ryan!)
I have been learning and practicing Jyotish since 96 or so, after about 10 years as a tropical astrologer. I also 'know' Therese, having had correspondance with her in the mid 90s, Hi Therese !

I nearly dropped astrology in 2008, 2009 because the sidereal signs presented too many problems. I was using the Systems Approach at the time. It was frustrating.

One reason for wanting to use tropical again for readings was that it was easier to feel people using tropical. My intuition invariably caught on the tropical delineations. The psychological work done in the 20th century astro in US and Europe had been and still is invaluable.

Another reason for going back to tropical, and I wanted tropical using also Jyotish, was that I was following the work of psychics and intuitives and claivoyant for years, and they only guessed tropical signs, never felt anything matching sidereal signs.

I have never seen sidereal astrologers being able to make, to my mind, accurate assesment of a chart using only the rasis. In fact Choudhry often answered to the question : what does a planet in a sign means : It does not mean anything !! Which always seemed the dumbest answer.

I am using the full PArasara teachings and Jaimini in my practice and I am just much more confident and clear headed. My own chart is also easier to read with my sun , Asc and Moon sign etc. I had been trying to convince myself that the sidereal signs had any validity for 10 years.

Parasara gives good indications for Rasis. Gender, elements, Pitta Kapha, Vata, directions, feet of Rasis, Night or Day strength, friendship of planets, guna, there is just a lot of things for comparison.

Having worked now for 5 years on things such as medical astrology, I am much more confident with tropical, using the full spectrum of methods described in Parasara, Jaimini, Vargas and so on.

There are easy things that can be checked. Venus is very important for recovery, potency, virya, regeneration. If venus is in Debilitation in the Rasi and in trimsamsa, it will invariably show a weak capacity for recovering damaged tissues and organs, slow growth, longest time for rebuilding strength and so on. It will show weak capacity for digesting and using food in the intestinal tract and gaining energy from it.
So venus is either in mulatrikona in Libra, or in debilitation in Virgo. Its an easy check. I invariably find people with strong venus having strong bodies, and vice versa with weak venus, weaker bodies. All things being equal naturally.

AStrology will still remain difficult. AS the Yukteswar quote by Therese says, there are many obstacles for mathematical and philosophical understanding using astrology.

Pierre

33
Hi Pierre!

Do you happen to have the dates we corresponded? I vaguely remember a "Pierre," but my sense of time has long departed. If we corresponded via email, I probably still have our correspondence on floppies somewhere.

As for zodiac signs, as I've said on my website and other places as well, the observed psychology of the tropical signs is correct for the underlying sidereal signs. So if you copy, say, tropical Aries traits to sidereal Aries, they will be totally wrong. So it may be better to use the tropical zodiac rather than make the mistake of saying that sidereal Aries is similar to tropical Aries. (And so on with the other 11 signs.)

You wrote:
So venus is either in mulatrikona in Libra, or in debilitation in Virgo. Its an easy check. I invariably find people with strong venus having strong bodies, and vice versa with weak venus, weaker bodies. All things being equal naturally.
I have Venus in Virgo (both zodiacs), and have never had much physical strength, though in my later years I don't have the usual health problems older people have. But I'm not a good example since my Venus is in the Tropical-Sidereal overlap area.

I would like to see some of your examples of the tropical zodiac working better. Can you give maybe two or three examples with birth data so we can look at the charts in both zodiacs?

Pierre, nice to see you here! I hope you will be able to provide examples that will generate some interesting discussion. Ryan said he was interested in research, but he has disappeared from the forum.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

34
Hiello again

Hi Therese. Hope you are good ! We corresponded you and I in late 96-97. I believe you left for India around mid-97ish. and we stopped.

Ok I will try to find some charts that make it clear cut. But its something all of us can do.
We just have to be rigorous with our undertanding of technique, methodology, apply ourselves to understanding how it works. Parasara, and its something that Ernst Wilhelm has demonstrated, taught a whole system, an integrated astrology. The various ideas relate and feed on others methods. For instance some of the Shad Bala feeds SOME aspects of the avasthas, and SOME other of the Shad balas feed and appreciate SOME aspects of the Yogas quantification. Its not an easy new age thing, because it has its roots in the vedic philosophy, so working with the Bhagavad Gita for instance, and other vedic texts, has help me relate and undertand different concepts.

At this point I dont even believe its possible to have 2 zodiacs, one tropical one sidereal. Just one zodiac is enough, and its already plenty, what with the enormous quantity of methods, 16 vargas, 5 school of avasthas, Shad Balas, Ishtas, Yogas, 9 conditional dasas etc etc. Then you have Prashna astrology, which seems quite a bit like the predecessor to so called western horary astrology. WHich is why I am here on this forum because Deborah Houlding maintain this superb site.

I dont see how a sidereal zodiac can be constructed. I mean, there is no astronomy for it. Nobody agrees on the damn ayanamsa. There is nothing astronomucally significant at the beginning of the said sidereal zodiac. How on earth can you base your whole zodiac on one silly star ? Is there a fixed star anywhere that I missed ? Is there anywhere a body of lore on Spica, or Revati that justifies anchoring a zodiac on it ? Did we all drop from Spica before the Flood and came here on a crystal ship ? There is precious little lore about these stars anywhere that I know of. To this day Indians celebrate the beginining of the year on the wrong date and do spiritual purifications that should be for the northern entrance of the Sun crossing into capricorn on dec 21, but dont because their Gurus tell them its jan 14th. Sri Yukteswar told them a century ago that its wrong but they still do it.
Even worse, if you are a famous astrologer, and want to make a name for yourself, then you gotta have your own proprietary ayanamsa. Then you cant discuss anything with anyone because you got your own ayanamsa and noone will agree with it so their is no discussion possible.

I could go on and on. Therese I just visited your site and read about polarity. Its late so I would write to you about that another time. But I beelieve there is one system of polarity and not 2, and its not very complicated. I dont see how it works in the sidereal, but its really late and I gotta sleep, take care you all, ;)
Pierre

35
Pierre wrote:
Ok I will try to find some charts that make it clear cut...
We just have to be rigorous with our undertanding of technique, methodology, apply ourselves to understanding how it works. Parasara, and its something that Ernst Wilhelm has demonstrated, taught a whole system, an integrated astrology. The various ideas relate and feed on others methods. For instance some of the Shad Bala feeds SOME aspects of the avasthas, and SOME other of the Shad balas feed and appreciate SOME aspects of the Yogas quantification. Its not an easy new age thing, because it has its roots in the vedic philosophy, so working with the Bhagavad Gita for instance, and other vedic texts, has help me relate and understand different concepts.
Right there in that paragraph I see major problems. When you combine so many different concepts, anything can seem to work. This is not being rigorous so much as a type of Piscean layering that can result in confusion. So for research we have to begin with simple and isolated concepts. Let?s take a particular planet in fall or exaltation and describe how that planet works in maybe three charts?? (It helps emphasis if the planet makes an aspect to the Moon or ascendant.)
How on earth can you base your whole zodiac on one silly star ? Is there a fixed star anywhere that I missed ? Is there anywhere a body of lore on Spica, or Revati that justifies anchoring a zodiac on it ?
I just discovered yesterday that a section of the Indian Calendar Reform Report is online. This is the government group that decided that zero Aries is 180 degrees from Spica (the Lahiri ayanamsa). So a great deal of research has gone into the selection of Spica as the all important star that defines the initial point of the sidereal zodiac. Here is the link to Part C of the Indian Calendar Reform Committee Report (1955, reprinted 1992):

https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfCa ... aCommittee

Choose the PDF view. I think it?s 138 pages long. I didn?t want to call it up again to save my computer from juggling memory. I printed out a number of pages that related to the nakshatras and Surya Siddhanta.
I could go on and on. Therese, I just visited your site and read about polarity. Its late so I would write to you about that another time. But I believe there is one system of polarity and not 2, and its not very complicated. I don?t see how it works in the sidereal.
Please see the Skyscript link below, Pierre. The concept of gender (polarity) is extremely important and runs through all cultures. The sidereal understanding aligns with universal symbolism. The tropical concept of polarity has been invented to go along with the odd-even arrangement of signs as astrologers have observed them to operate.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8448
Sidereal Gender and Universal Symbolism

But let?s get on with some of your concrete examples (with birth data) of how one or more planets operate in their exaltation or fall. This is only for starters. Planetary placement in rasis is about as basic as astrology can get.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

36
Hi Therese

Oh its fantastic that you found the whole Calendar report, bravo !! Thanks for putting it up here ! I been looking for that thing forever.
Its really odd to write again to you, as if I was 18 years younger.

About technique, unfortunately, dignity is only one thing. Dignity such as exalt, fall etc gives solid information. But for predictive purposes other important matter are needed. I wish it were as simple as predicting with just one thing. Why do you think that Parasara, or Prashna, give all those techniques...
But I ll try make is simple :

case 1 : female 08-06-62, 11:23 time zone 5w00, 71w15, 46N48, Quebec City. Tropical Asc is 29 Libra.

Serious menstrual pain all her life. Stocky and overweight body

Venus rules gonads. Venus is in debilitation in D1, D7, D9.
venus is ALSO, its important the AK, in virgo, for which Atma karaka Jaimini gives overweight and intestinal fires and itches. (which are happening a lot to her)
Now I just reviewed her Sidereal chart and a case may be made for similar symptoms. Its not always simple to compare. ..

Case 2 Female 12-01-96, 9h07, Montreal, time zone 5w, 73w35, 45n35
Asc Cap 2

Physical weakness, lazy body, very little muscle tone and strength, things feel always heavy etc. She hates sport.

Jup is debilitated in Asc in Cap. The ruler Sat is also debilitated in Aries in 4th. Saturn and Capricorn rule the muscular system.
Incidentaly this girl also has serious menstrual problems and venus is weak in D30 and D7. (For D30 I use the real chart, not the Lords Chart)

Thats a start, take care,
P

37
Pierre wrote:
Oh its fantastic that you found the whole Calendar report, bravo !! Thanks for putting it up here ! I been looking for that thing forever.
The PDF is Part C, "History of the Calendar in Different Countries Through the Ages."

Appendix 5-B is "The Zero-point of the Hindu Zodiac." I don't know what topics Parts A and B cover. Perhaps they're highly mathematical?

Thanks for the chart data, Pierre. I'll take a look at the charts tomorrow.

Please spell out the month as it isn't clear which is the month and which is the day. Here in the US we write the month first, followed by the day. (You can edit your original post.)

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

38
for anyone who wants to look at the chart pierre offers - female 08-06-62 - that is month, day, year, as opposed to day, month, year.. august 6 1962...after doing both charts, i found the one with libra rising..

40
Hi again to all

Yes sorry, its all month first, and tropical. I have been having trouble writing posts here. LIke writing a lengthy post and losing all of it.

That chart is going to have libra asc and venus in Debilitation both in sidereal and tropical rasis.

But as I was writing ealrlier (and it all got lost) the trimsamsa, the D30, is having venus with moon in capricorn. Thsi varga, the trimsamsa is very important in health matters. venus is capricorn is ok. But moon is an ennemy of venus and afflicts it. And the ruler is saturn. Saturn is in very bad state in scorpio a sign of an ennemy. this ennemy is mars. And mars sits rigth there in scorpio and afflicts satun badly. Its a lousy combination for health.
Weak saturn gives low resistance and the body physical cleaning process of toxins etc is not optimum at all. Toxins are gonna accumulate in the nervous and muscular system. Muscle tone is so so.
Venus, is suffering the brunt of it all. As we said venus rules the regenerative process, digestion, extraction of energy in digestion, esp. the small intestine. So this process is delayed and laborious. And it is very important because venus rules the ascendant in the main chart !