whats the verdict on aspects by sign

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I am interpreting my chart, but I just have such a hard time imagining my 28 degrees aries jupiter actually being considered in opposition to my 6 degrees libra moon. It just doesnt quite seem right.

I guess what I want to know is, do people here actually use aspects by sign? And are they useful in delineating the natal chart/do they provide useful information?

Signs are what matters

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I absolutely use aspects by sign, rather than number of degrees. It works, because what matters is the way the signs relate to each other, for better or worse.

In my work I've found that close aspects by sign tend to be more powerful than those that are off by many degrees, (up to 29). But even distant aspects by sign can be quite significant.

Similarly, planets found with close numerical degrees of difference (say 59 degrees of Sagittarius and 0 degrees of Capricorn) do not act as if conjunct unless they are in mutual reception, such as Saturn in Sagittarius and Jupiter in Capricorn.

Re: whats the verdict on aspects by sign

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AstroNovice wrote:I am interpreting my chart, but I just have such a hard time imagining my 28 degrees aries jupiter actually being considered in opposition to my 6 degrees libra moon. It just doesnt quite seem right.

I guess what I want to know is, do people here actually use aspects by sign? And are they useful in delineating the natal chart/do they provide useful information?
Paulus of Alexandria, Introductory Matters
The reckoning concerning separation and application is always most efficacious when acting in an arc from the first to 3rd degrees, as far as the form of the outcomes is concerned; the second tier of the aforesaid tabulation of degrees is that having the number from the first degree up to an arc of seven degrees; the third, in efficacy, from the first degree to the 15th; the fourth conducts business, according to the reckoning concerning separation and application, from the first degree up to the 30th. Either separation or application being taken from these latter variances possesses efficacy after long amounts of time and not from youth, I mean making the accomplishment of what will be, whether good or base, from middle age or even in old age


Goran
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com

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-ellen

would you also apply the same reasoning to aspects to the ASC or MC? Or would you be more inclined to use precise orbs for that?

also, what are your feelings on conjunction by sign and reception? Basically I have my mars, venus, sun, and mercury in virgo. However my mercury is not conjunct by orb with the other three planets, in spite of that, would mars, venus and sun still be considered in reception with mercury?



-cor scorpii

I sort of got the gist of that passage, but I am not exactly the smartest guy haha, so I had some trouble understanding it. Could you explain it a little bit more?

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I have the difficulty understanding it as well.

Though the text looks weird, Paulus seems to be saying that the effect is the strongest when the aspect is within 0-3 degrees, and 3-7 degrees will have moderate effects. For 7-15 degrees and 15-30 degrees, there will still be an effect, but it will happen only when the native is older, presumably the larger the gap, the older he will be before something happens.

EDIT:

So like in Astro's case, having an orb of 22 degrees (the fourth level) means that those things forecasted to happen by that aspect will come to pass only when Astro is older.

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AstroNovice wrote:I am interpreting my chart, but I just have such a hard time imagining my 28 degrees aries jupiter actually being considered in opposition to my 6 degrees libra moon. It just doesnt quite seem right.
A feeling that is confirmed by Marcus Manilius in his Astronomica, II., 297-351, already two thousand years before your statement. About 400 years before Paulus Alexandrinus Manilius stresses, other than Paulus , the importance of not only counting the signs, but to calculate in dergrees. He states that natives born in squares by signs , for example, sometimes could not feel the square's influence because squares by sign, could equal sextiles or trines in degrees (319-686).

(686):"minor est numeri quam cardinis usus." - lesser is the use of the number [counting the signs] than that of the true point [in degrees].

Johannes
Last edited by johannes susato on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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@Johannes:

Ah, but then we would have to ask whether the querent feels the effect of the trine instead. We also have to ascertain, at what point of the querent's life did he make this comment. For humans are creatures bound by space AND time.

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Larxene wrote:@Johannes:

Ah, but then we would have to ask whether the querent feels the effect of the trine instead. We also have to ascertain, at what point of the querent's life did he make this comment. For humans are creatures bound by space AND time.
Would you not agree that it is interesting to have two a little dissenting opinions of ancient authorities, Larxene? Whereas Manilius seems to stress more the feelings and condition of the native, the long "orbs" of Paulus seem more a measurement of times for events in my opinion. Could it be that something is wrong with this measurement, or does it work at least, or why did it not survive in practice?

Perhaps Astronovice is "old enough" to testify whether or not Paulus' doctrine is right as to his feelings in life and the events at his old age?

Johannes

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admittedly...my grasp on the topic is still a little shaky. That being said, I honestly can't tell whether or not I feel the opposition. Its like, if I read the descriptions of it, I feel like some of it applies, but for the rest of it I don't really know whether or not it applies. I'm literally clueless. I think if this opposition energy between jupiter and moon exists, then its existing on a very fundamental level which is hard for me to pick out. In a nutshell its like the old saying: "the last thing a fish notices is the water" Although, I may not even be old enough yet to feel its effects, since the distance between moon and jupiter is 23 degrees, and I am only 24, so I may have to get back to you all on this in a few decades :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Valens says that aspects have a "tension" that increases as the aspect gets closer and becomes slack when the aspect is wide orb. He used the metaphor of a string on a musical instrument that gets tight/slack.

More importantly is to ask the question if the Moon completes the aspect to Jupiter before Jupiter leaves the sign. In considerations of the houses Jupiter rules, that means the Moon testifies and Jupiter calls to witness. The Moon would offer testimony about what it sees about the houses that Jupiter rules if the Moon can also cast a ray into those places. If not, the Moon has no testimony, but may offer an opinion based upon it's own nature.
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

Close aspects variants of whole sign aspects

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Good day,

Prof. Dr. Benjamin Dykes has in my humble opinion done excellent work explaining the topic of this thread in his books, ex. gr. Introductions to Traditional Astrology: Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi. Whole sign aspects are operative and gain intensity during application, losing it in separation, gradual processes.

Interesting are cases of nearly exact aspects that do not fulfil the requirement of aspect by sign, ex. gr. Ar?s 29 Pisces, Kronos 1 Cancer. Such aspects are potentially operative but hemmed by a wall. In such instances one might do well to consider that both wandering stars are weakened by close proximity to sign boundaries. One can then see if, when and how the aspect perfects. S?l?n?, for example, can intervene. The Mediaeval aspect doctrines, whilst based on clear astronomical phenomena, are quite intricate compared to most of their modern counterparts.

Best regards,

lihin
Non esse nihil non est.

Re: Close aspects variants of whole sign aspects

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i think a lot of this stuff is in a persons imagination which is why i have said here before so much of astrology is subjective in nature..
having a square between saturn and mars so close to the equinox/solstice points would be considered stronger by me, not weaker..

as for medieval aspect theory being more complex then modern counterparts, clearly one has not explored much of the modern theories to make this statement! in the above example saturn/mars =aries point is just one of the many concepts that i don't recall reading about in dykes book or any medieval astro text..


lihin wrote: Interesting are cases of nearly exact aspects that do not fulfill the requirement of aspect by sign, ex. gr. Ar?s 29 Pisces, Kronos 1 Cancer. Such aspects are potentially operative but hemmed by a wall. In such instances one might do well to consider that both wandering stars are weakened by close proximity to sign boundaries.

The Mediaeval aspect doctrines, whilst based on clear astronomical phenomena, are quite intricate compared to most of their modern counterparts.

Best regards,

lihin