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EXACT Moon Saturn opposition

 
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PiscesLeo



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 20

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: EXACT Moon Saturn opposition Reply with quote

Guys,
I have a relationship chart (February 6, 2005, 8:27 p.m., New York City) where the Moon is 13 MINUTES away from an exact opposition with Saturn. Cardinal signs, Angular Houses. How should I read this? Is this aspect so close that it can soon be regarded as separating? Does this imply an influence that will soon pass?
The other aspects between querent and quesitted significators look good, especially if we use Neptune as co-ruler of quesitted since Pisces is on 7th cusp. Does anybody do that? Use outer planets as co-signifcators? Quesitted IS a Pisces. How bout if we stick with Jupiter as quesitted? Mercury, significator of querent makes trine to Jupiter, but only after making conjunctions to Neptune and Sun. Is this an obstacle?
Any feedback greatly appreciated.
PL
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without looking at the chart, I'd say that an opposition that is applying will always signify an upcoming event, not one that will past quickly.

I personally don't use the outer planets to rule signs and signify people or events. They add something to the chart, but I only mention them when they are either angular or in a tight aspect with one of the significators. If not, I don't use them.

I wouldn't also make use of the fact that someone who was born with the Sun in Pisces is also signified by Jupiter in a horary. Your horary and this person's natal chart are two separate things and as they used to say in the movies, any similarity is purely coincidental.

And yes, if your two significators come together in an aspect but only after first meeting up with other planets, that definitely is a clue to the nature of the obstcles between you. This is called bodily prohibition. I don't think it's always a deal breaker, but it does show a roadblock. I'd really take a look at what these prohibiting planets signify, i.e., which houses they rule or what they natutally have rulership over. Think of a chart as something that is trying to tell you a message. You don't need the chart to tell you that you like this person, but you might need it to show you what's in the way Once you know that you can pick your options better. I hope his helps.
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PiscesLeo



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 20

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Hi there Reply with quote

Hey,
Thanks a lot for your feedback!
I just wanted to clarify a few things and ask you to clarify some of what you wrote.
I'm not using Jupiter or Neptune as the quesitted's significator because he's a Pisces; I'm using them because Pisces is the sign on 7th House cusp.
You say don't use the outer planest as significators. But then, if one of them is in the way of an applying aspect between the significators, does an outer planet still produce prohibition? Do you know what I mean? Are they unimportant as significators but important as aspect blockers or transmitters? A little confused.
Querent's significator is Mercury, it's applying to close conjunction with Neptune, then trine to Jupiter. Hamaker-Zondag says you can use outers as co-significators, so close conjunction would count. Or if Neptune doesn't count as significator OR prohibitor, then trine to Jupiter is next aspect. And both Mercury and Neptune are in 5th House and this thing is just getting off the ground. I dunno. But then there's Moon-Saturn opposition.
Any other feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks again.
PL
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíve taken a look at the chart and it doesnít look very promising to me, sad to say.

First I understand that you arenít using Jupiter as the quesitedís significator because he or she is a Pisces. Why I mentioned that is because I hear people bring parts of a natal chart into a horary as if it makes it more meaningful when I donít think the two are related. A horary is no less valid if the significators donít match the natal chart. Let the horary speak on itís own without reference to the natal charts.

Like I said, I donít use the modern planets as significators at all, so for me, youíd be seen as Mercury and the Moon and this other person as Jupiter. Yes the two of you are coming together by a trine, but that is negated by the fact that right now Mercury (you) is combust the Sun and will continue to be so when they reach perfection. A significator being combust shows that it is practically impossible for things to happen the way we want. Just as the Sun blinds us so we canít see Mercury right now, combustion symbolizes that your power to act in this situation is overshadowed by the Sun.

Your 5th house is really important here but is in terrible shape. Itís important because of all these planets there Ė Venus, Mercury (you), the Sun and Neptune, but it is blighted mainly because it is ruled by a very debilitated Saturn which is angular and thereby positioned to do a lot of harm. Saturn also rules all of these planets, so it literally holds all of the cards here. Saturn here acts to slam the break onto the 5th house matter like romance, sex, pleasure, all those good kinds of things. You might have trouble seeing this because of the fact that youíre attracted to this person, as shown by Venus in the 5th and by Neptune there too which tends to show that you aren't seeing things clearly.

Like you noticed, Saturn will be directly opposite to the Moon very soon. This just reinforces the theme of obstacles in this chart. This might show matters coming to a head and maybe suddenly because a planet like Saturn being retrograde can sometime show that. This opposition could hardly be more powerful. The Moon is in the 4th house, which shows that the coming split will involve the very foundations of things. Mars also sits right in the 4th house too, and rules the 3rd house, which Iíve seen to show a lot of fights. Prepare for some fireworks. Mars is strong because it is in its exaltation right now and is also angular.

The only contacts the Moon makes in this chart are all difficult. It started out with a square to Jupiter, which would show some tension between you and this other person in the recent past. Then the Moon moves to be opposite Saturn and the only other aspect it makes is to be square your part of fortune and north node. Not a very easy situation for you at all.

In short, Saturn dominates this chart. And that never is a good sign. To sum things up, there is a lot of attraction here on your part, but the picture looks really blighted with the potential for a breakup accompanied by some harsh words.

What can you do about this? Iíd try to get some distance between the two of you. You might try to see this person a bit more realistically too. With all of this attraction itís hard sometimes to see the real person and not what you want to. I hope this helps, and please tell me how this develops.
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PiscesLeo



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:17 am    Post subject: Hi Mark Reply with quote

Mark,
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the reading you so generously provided.
I should have been clearer about the original question. It wasn't a general "future-of-the-relationship" question, but rather whether I should contact this person at a specific time and manner -- namely tomorrow by email.
I'm so glad to recieve your reading. The badly aspected Moon, Mars in the 3rd House (email? computers?). The whole thing was clearly a bad idea.
I'm very curious however, about some of your responses, or rather your AB-solute separation of the horary from any natal or current transitting circumstances. For instance, in this case, I neglected to see that tomorrow's New Moon falls on a very sensitive place on this person's chart. New Moon's are very charged times, obviously, when the Moon is essentially "combust." Can the lunar combustion theme of tomorrow be read into the badly aspected Moon and the Combust significators of teh horary? Or is that an overly imaginative interpretation?
Do you know what I mean?
Does Combustion apply in current planetary transits? For instance, Mercury will be super-combust the Sun for therest of the month. Does that mean that there's NO good time to contact him till they're more than eight degrees (or whatever it is) apart? Or is that just a horary consideration.
Getting into horary has blurred and confused some of my undersatnding of basic natal and transit astrology I guess.
Anyway, thanks again.
PL
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíd keep horary separate from natal work and its transits, except in one way. Iíve also wondered if transits to a horary matter or if anyone uses them, but I havenít seen anyone do that so I have never done that myself.

I am not sure that you are using transits the way Iíve been taught. My main source for this is John Frawley and also my own limited experience. When I first started studying astrology I kept a close eye out for all kinds of transits, and even kept a journal to try to match up my experiences with the current transits. I didnít kind much connection there. Then I read John Frawleyís books and he only uses transits as they apply to a personís progressed chart or solar return chart. A progressed chart is where you take the personís natal chart and advance it forward one day for every year since birth. And he further limits this by saying that the only transits that matter are when ones that involve one of five main points Ė when the Sun, Moon, ASC, mid-heaven or part of fortune is changing signs or terms. For example, in my progressed natal chart for this past year, the only one of these five that is entering a new stage is my progressed Sun, which is entering the sign of Taurus. Using Frawleyís system, the only transits that matter are transits to the Sun. These would indicate the timing of events that are symbolized by the progressed Sun entering Taurus. Iíve got to say that I havenít looked into any of these transits so I donít know if theyíre accurate or not. Either way, my solution is to pretty much ignore transits and rely just on horary for answers to specific questions.

The only way that I have used horary and natal together is as follows. A friend of mine vanished for several days and I wanted to know should I contact him to see whatís being going on with him and if I could help. So I did a horary chart. In this chart he was Saturn in the 12th house, with no connections to my significators. His significator was ruled by the ruler of the 4th house. I read this as meaning that he was off by himself (Saturn = solitary), that he was in a place that was beyond my ability to help (12th house) and that the nature of the problem was dealing with his father (4th house). Now all the answers to this were contained in the horary chart, but I did think of his natal chart as well, where his ASC ruler Mercury is conjunct Saturn, both in the 12th house. This is someone who likes to be left alone when heís in a crisis. Heís not a person who wants a helping hand when heís down, he want to be left alone. So with that in mind I just let him sort things out by himself and let him contact me. But I also could have taken that advice strictly from the horary itself, and I also could have come up with that just from knowing his personality.

So I wouldnít think much about tomorrowís new moon and this personís chart. Iím sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have the answer to your question in the horary chart. If you want to see what larger issues are at work in this personís life, you can look at the progressed chart or the solar return. But all of this for me is too complicated. First you have to understand the natal chart on its own, which is a lot of work right there. Then you have to see which of the five main points (Sun, Moon, ASC, MC and Fortune) are entering a new stage, then you have to relate that back to the natal and fix the timing using the current transits. You could have done five horaries in less time.

Quote:
Does Combustion apply in current planetary transits? For instance, Mercury will be super-combust the Sun for the rest of the month. Does that mean that there's NO good time to contact him till they're more than eight degrees (or whatever it is) apart? Or is that just a horary consideration


You do advance a horary chart ahead, but mainly to see if a certain aspect will perfect or not, and you only include what happens to a planet in the sign it currently is in. In your chart, you look ahead and see that Mercury will be trine with Jupiter (while combust) and then it will be conjunct the Sun, and then it changes signs. You stop looking at Mercury or any planet once it changes signs. So youíd ignore the conjunction of Mercury and Uranus because it happens in a different sign. As to timing of events using a horary, you donít go by the real-time transits. Using a different chart for example, if something is promised by an upcoming aspect that happens next week in real time, the thing youíre looking for wouldnít happen on the exact day of the aspect reaching perfection. John Frawley writes about how to time events using horary and the article is on this site, but I havenít found it to be terribly accurate myself.

So if you want to know about whether you should contact him, donít rely on the exact real-time duration for Mercury being combust. Hereís where it gets a bit difficult.

I am not so sure that the horary you did has only to do with whether you should call him or not. Horary will sometimes tell you more than the original question. I think that this chart is more about the whole relationship and not about just whether you should call him. Iíd take a long look at the chart, live with it for a few days, and especially look at the 5th house Ė attraction, confusion, powerlessness and obstacles. And you only get one shot with horary. Itís more or less like a birth chart for the situation. So if you do call him and it goes well or it goes badly, you donít do another horary to see what happens next. I hope this helps.
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PiscesLeo



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Hey Mark Reply with quote

Thnaks again for all your comments. Need to print this out and get a good look at it.
PL
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