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W.A.T.F.P.F.M.R.W.U. & W.W.H.A.C?
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: W.A.T.F.P.F.M.R.W.U. & W.W.H.A.C? Reply with quote

"What are the future possibilities for my current relationship with U. and will we have a child?

Question asked 15 December 2004, 1.25PM, Brussels, Belgium

Ascendant 13 degrees Aries (my sun sign)

First part of the question:

My significator Moon at 13 Aquarius makes a perfect trine with his significator Jupiter at 15 Libra in the 7th. Seems very promising. I also like that he comes out as jupiter.

BUT

His co-significator Venus (ruler of 7), at 28 Scorpio in the 8th, moves away from a conjunction with my co-significator Mars at 23 Scorpio.

What happened in the 1,5 month that have passed since I asked the question, is that (as venus entered Sag) he went abroad to his job's HQ, then visited his family abroad, then for 3 weeks visited all tsunami countries (for his job), and then had to go to his job's HQ again.

As a result, I've seen him only once after I asked the question. WOuldn't be that big of a deal, but he hardly ever calls me or writes me. He is a real workaholic and it could be he is too busy now, but at this point I can no longer believe in our relationship because i don't feel he cares.

The one time I saw him, he had just returned from Somalia and Indonesia, was sick and exhausted, and it clearly was not the right timing to discuss our relationship. He had to leave again immediately afterwards and said he would call me when back. That was 10 days ago. Haven't heard from him since. Confused

I am wondering now whether he is just too busy with work and going through a crisis (he was very cynical and exhausted after 3 weeks in the tsunami countries, woke up at night still smelling the dead bodies Sad ), and that eventually the Jupiter trine Moon will win, or whether that venus leaving mars, and both in Scoprio in the 8th, is the final result?

Any insights would be very welcome.


Second part of the question:

Saturn in the fifth house makes a trine with my co-significator Mars, but I take it that the involvement of Saturn and the placement of mars in the 8th are bad signs. Sad I actually am not too keen on having kids, not that I exclude it but would prefer to adopt. With Moon in Aquarius in 11 trining Jup. the latter option seems a better plan.

Any comments and insights and remarks on things I overlooked are very welcome. Thank you in advance.
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we broke up. i don't think this is recoverable. funny with that jup in 7 trine moon.
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Pocket Dragon



Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 48

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haku wrote:
we broke up. i don't think this is recoverable. funny with that jup in 7 trine moon.


Aw, sorry to hear that Haku. Hope you are ok. Perhaps the Jupiter Moon trine is saying that it will be for the best in the long run.
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Pocket Dragon. I am all right with it. Just curious to understand the horary.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Haku,

I think where youíve gone wrong here is in making the primary significators Ďco-significatorsí (and you seem to have used co-significators as primary significators).

With Aries on the Ascendant your main significator is Mars on the 8th house cusp Ė already an indication that you need to Ďlet goí. The man in question is signified by Venus, ruler of the 7th. Venus is separating away from Mars showing the best of his interest lies in the past. Jupiterís influence upon him is important because it is sitting on the 7th house cusp and the Moon (the general significator of action) is applying to Jupiter by trine. But who or what is Jupiter? Being near to his house cusp it may reflect his physical description but we also need to consider the houses it rules to locate its representation Ė the only house with a Jupiter-ruled sign on the cusp is the 9th house, showing the influence of overseas travel upon this man. The Moon rules his 10th house (turned 4th) so it looks like the increase of his professional concerns overwhelm any commitment he can make to you.

The next application of Mars (your significator) is the trine to Saturn on the 5th house cusp. Saturn on the 5th house cusp demonstrates disappointment in pregnancy matters; itís a sign of infertility, and Venus has most recently separated from Saturn showing a blighted prospect of having children with this man. The 5th house is ruled by the Moon and although that is applying to the trine of Jupiter which, on the surface of things at least, looks good, you have to balance that against the fact that the Moon is conjunct Neptune which is a weakening influence in fertility matters, applying to the square of your own significator, Mars, and the 5th house is tenanted by Saturn.

Ultimately since the main significators are separating on the 8th house cusp, and thereís no other beneficial contact to reconnect them, (we have the Moon applying by square and an application to Saturn Ė both suggesting strain and disappointment) the chart doesnít look promising at all. Hope this helps you see it in a better context.

Deb
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much Deb. I have always thought that the moon and planets in the houses were more important significators than the rulers of the houses... Apparently not, then.

I have also alwyas thought this for natal charts and solar and lunar returns. Is that not true then either?

(btw, I am really ok with the situation. The relationship was very enriching, but I have not shed a tear about its ending)
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at this chart and I agree with the basics of what Deb said. The significators are separating, and his significator, Venus is in its detriment. All this shows that this is not meant to be.

But I do have a question about how to interpret the fact that his significator is in a sign that is ruled by her significator, Mars. My thinking has been perhaps too simplistic on this, but I had thought that such a situation would describe a guy who was very emotionally attached to her, but to his detriment. While just based on reception alone, it would seem that she is not as attracted to him, because Mars in only in the face of Venus. I must be wrong in using this kind of simplistic rule that says that whatever planet rules the sign, exaltation, triplicity, etc. is something that the person is ruled by or exalts, or likes. I donít know what the guyís feelings are here, but Iíd guess that she is, or was more attracted to him that is shown based on reception alone. How do we handle receptions in charts? How important would they be in this chart?

On second thought, maybe Iím wrong about Hakuís interest in the guy being so low, as is shown by Mars being in the face of Venus. She did say that she didnít shed a tear about it ending, so perhaps my reading isnít as far off as I thought.

Another question is about how to figure out the role of Jupiter here. Why use the radical 9th to show travel and the turned 10th house? Wouldnít you use either all radical or all turned houses? I am not disagreeing here; I just would like to understand the process more.

And Haku, can I ask two questions? First, where exactly are you located? I used Brussels, but I came out with a rising sign of 11 degrees not 13. So I assume that youíre in a suburb that is several miles from the center of town. Could you give the exact coordinates?

And secondly, if itís not too personal, could you give some details as to the cause of the breakup? Did it have anything to do with his job or travel? I donít want to pry but this helps us all learn to read a chart better.
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I am located right in the centre of Brussels. But you are right - I accidentily left the name of my parents' town, 100 km north-east of BXL, when i drew the chart.

I can tell you more of the story. Would be interesting to understand it better with the horary. I would really love to understand him better, and to understand better what happened.

When I said "I did not shed a tear" it is not that I did not want this to last, I wanted it to last. I highly appreciated him and cared about our relation. But I have learnt from the past that when a relationship is over there usually is a reason for it, that one has given all there was to give, learnt and all there was to learn, and that it is time to move on. So it's a philosophical attitude that I have trained myself to have.

Plus, in this case, I had been doubting about his feelings ever since the begining of November, although the one time that I directly asked him whether he was sure he wanted to continue, he emphasized he really was, and he really was not a smooching lying kind of guy. But his acts did not follow his words.

He is a very bright and over-intelligent man who has a demanding job and had an extra-ordinary education, Harvard degrees, nobel prize winners visiting his father... However, emotionally and socially he was not on the same level as intellectually. Plus he repeatedly told me that he had a "very dark side". I knew from in the beginning that that could be an issue. But I respected him, still do, and learnt extremely much from him. For which I am grateful.

As for the actual break-up: it has not been spoken out. I called him one more time, sent a text-message one more time, and again he did not reply eitehr one of them. So after 3 weeks of no news at all I decided to consider it as closed. But I summarized it here on the board as "we broke up".

Would be curious to see if tehre are things in the chart that might help me understand him/it

PS 1: Just discovered that at 13 libra is the fixed star Algorab, key words for which are: Scavenging, destructiveness, repulsiveness, malevolence, fiendishness and lying Shocked

PS 2: Some of you may start curling your toes, but I also checked teh asteroids for our names in the horary chart: Anna makes a sextile with Venus and with Ulrika; Ulrika sextiles Anna and trines Mars... Unfortunately the connections seem merely indicators of the question rather than of the future... However, Ulrika in Pisces in teh 12th may indicate that he was hiding things... moreover it is conjunct Markab, the star of sorrow.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 580

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I have learnt from the past that when a relationship is over there usually is a reason for it, that one has given all there was to give, learnt and all there was to learn, and that it is time to move on. So it's a philosophical attitude that I have trained myself to have.

Haku,
What a great attitude!! Thumbs up .
I'm sorry that things did not work out for you, but I've noticed from my own experience that if we break up with someone, usually someone better shows up next time around. I think a 'break up" is how destiny makes way for someone who is better for you, and gets rid of someone who was not right for you in the first place. You just need to maintain faith in yourself.

Quote:
Some of you may start curling your toes, but I also checked teh asteroids for our names in the horary chart:

I recall in the asteroid post you mentioned something about Ulrika (I think you said current boyfriend, so I'm assuming that's who it was) being prominently placed in your natal, right? It would appear to me that this person has given you something that you will always have to keep, hence the significance of his name in your natal. What do you think?

Maybe Pete can tell us what he thinks of the placement of Ulrika in the horary??

All the best,
Taurus7
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe Pete can tell us what he thinks of the placement of Ulrika in the horary??


I'll be perfectly honest and say that I don't think we should place too much importance on named asteroids in horary work. If I was to say anything at all about asteroid Ulrike in this chart I would just note its position in the 12th house.
However, the traditional rules of horary interpretation should be observed and followed, first and last. I think the separation of the primary sigs without translation or collection of light tells the whole story here, and the essential dignity of Anna's sig' tells me that she'll survive it just fine...Smile
==
Pete
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Haku,
What a great attitude!! .


getting older and wiser. learnt a couple of things after half a life time of banging my head against walls Cool

Quote:
the essential dignity of Anna's sig' tells me that she'll survive it just fine.


I feel better than before, actually. funnily.
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

still trying to figure out the horary... two ideas came to my mind:

1. Moon is at 2 degrees from a perfect trine with Jupiter in 7... Moon is in the 11th, i.e. the 5th of the 7th, and it rules the 4th, i.e. the 10th of the 7th... Could it be that the Moon doesn't represent me (for I saw him only once, 4 weeks after the horary, and it wasn't a particularly close or harmonious meeting) , but another woman, whom he met through his work? Confused

2. About Venus, his significator, being in detriment in Scorpio, the sign of my significator: I can't imagine that I or our relationship would have been to his detriment (I'm a loving & lovable person and I have a lot to offer Cool Smile ) -- but I take it that it indicates that he had been feeling bad in our relationship for quite a while, or that he was having destructive tendencies. Does that make sense?
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Moon is at 2 degrees from a perfect trine with Jupiter in 7... Moon is in the 11th, i.e. the 5th of the 7th, and it rules the 4th, i.e. the 10th of the 7th... Could it be that the Moon doesn't represent me


By the way, I am using Regiomontanus for the houses. I am not sure what you are using. I mention this because of something that Deb said about your significator Mars being in the 8th house. I have Mars in the 7th house using Regiomontanus. I notice that if you use either Placidus or Porphyry that Mars is indeed in the 8th house. Or maybe she just meant to say that his significator Venus is in the 8th house, as it is no matter which of the three house systems you use. Either way, the interpretation doesnít change much.

Also, I picked the town of Turnhout, Belgium for the place of the chart. That gave me the 13-degree Aries rising that you mentioned.


While what you said about how to interpret the Moon and Jupiter could be the case, Iíd first look at a simple explanation rather than a complicated one. And in some sense, for you it doesnít matter how the relationship came to end, it just matters that it did end. The key here may first be to decide what Jupiter represents. I wasnít quite convinced about Debís suggestion that Jupiter represented overseas travel through work. I am open to the suggestion, just not convinced of it. Youíd be in a better position to understand this. I was more drawn to something else in the chart that sort of relates to all of what youíve described.

First lets look at a couple of things that you said. You said that youíre confused about the situation Ė his disappearance and not calling Ė and you also said that he claimed to have a very dark side. Look at the Moon, your co-significator. Itís close to being conjunct Neptune. Both are in the 12th house, along with Uranus. The 12th house is ruled by a very debilitated Saturn. That is quite a potent line up there. All of this points in one direction, and that is that the situation is impossible for you to fathom, that it involves confusion (Neptune), a break-up (Uranus) and a hard limit (Saturn). The 12th house shows things that you canít see or understand or do anything about. Your Moon being on its cusp and the whole house being ruled by Saturn shows that this unknown and unknowable thing is an obstacle relating to you and this guy.

When I see the 12th house emphasized so much in a chart, I take that to mean donít waste your time trying to understand it. Just except that itís a mystery and that you canít do anything about it and act accordingly. The ruler of the 12th house Saturn is in the 5th house, so maybe that does point to another woman. Iíve noticed that horary almost never clearly shows the presence of another woman or man. The classic rule is to see if your guyís significator is either ruled by or exalts another planet and is also in an close aspect with that same planet too. Thatís not the case here. The 12th house ruler being positioned in the 5th house may just as easily show that he has some deep and hidden personal problems relating to sexuality that limits his ability to have a relationship with you. You said that he is not as mature as he might be for someone of his age. But all of this is a side issue. With your two significators parting, his in the 8th house, and your co-significator in the 12th house, whether he has someone else is not really relevant.

One other thought is that the Moonís last contact with the main significators is a square with Mars. Besides being a square, which is hard enough, the Moon would be in its fall in Scorpio so that make this an especially difficult contact. (I left out the Moonís contact with the Sun because the Sun is not emphasized in the chart.)

There is a positive side which is that with your significator in itís own sign and triplicity, it shows that youíre in really strong position here, which is really obvious from your overall tone of voice. Good luck and my thoughts are with you.
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haku



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for the teaching session. Smile

funny how uranus in pisces in 12 summarizes it all... the unsolvable mystery of the confusing break up...
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I just checked this out and youíre right Ė I did have the chart set to Placidus. That was a mistake, Iíd have changed it to Regiomontanus if Iíd realised.

Earlier you wrote:

Quote:
Another question is about how to figure out the role of Jupiter here. Why use the radical 9th to show travel and the turned 10th house? Wouldnít you use either all radical or all turned houses? I am not disagreeing here; I just would like to understand the process more.


I place the emphasis upon radical houses wherever possible and generally only turn the houses where I need to add an extra layer of detail or want to explore something specific to an individual other than the querent. Because Jupiter is angular and receiving the Moon, the houses it rules in the radical figure will help to define its representation of something important that is affecting the question in a general sense. This brings issues of travel into the framework of the question. If Iím looking at the influence of the partnerís job, the Moon becomes the significator of his turned 10th Ė itís in a partile sextile to Mercury, his turned 9th house ruler and applying to the trine of Jupiter which is also carrying a connection with travel. Jupiter certainly has a much deeper influence than that, I was just illustrating that where the main significators are separating we canít rely on the Moonís trine to Jupiter to show promise of a reunion because it can be describing other factors relevant to the break up. I wouldnít want to ignore Jupiterís rulership over the turned 3rd which contains the Sun-Pluto conjunction either. This all helps to describe an ďover-intelligent man who has a demanding jobĒ. With regards to the underlying reason for the break up, I donít think it goes much further than that and Jupiterís presence on the 7th house cusp helps relate it to us. Socially he moves in large circles and this was probably the distracting influence that prevented the relationship maturing.
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