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void of course moon concept applied in horary or natal astro
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james_m



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Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: void of course moon concept applied in horary or natal astro Reply with quote

i have edited the title and this post to reflect the specific direction i would like to explore here.

this is an ongoing question for me but i would be curious to hear from other forum members on my line of inquiry.. at what point does one recognize they are applying rules for horary that do or don't apply to natal astrology? to me the 2 branches are very different. i see horary techniques being used on natal charts and i don't believe this was the intended purpose of those rules. feedback welcome..

i am going to quote deb from a locked thread that doesn't allow me to quote properly, but it is a response that she gave to my suggestion that void of course moon is a technique used only in horary..

"Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi James

I wouldn't describe the concept of being void of course as being a horary technique. Take a look at the list of definitions given in the link I provided at the end of the last post - only the last one, by Lilly, has comments which are intended to be specific to the judgement of horaries; the rest are defining the concept in general terms, to be applied in any kind of chart. There is a difference, in that the Moon's importance is particularly emphasized in horary, but I've always thought that the study of horary provides a good way for astrologers to get more understanding of principles that are used in the traditional approach towards nativities, etc, although in natal work there are more techniques to consider because the scope of the astrologer's consideration is so much broader. A horary chart is very narrow and limited in its focus, so the difference is not so much about a switch of technique but a switch of emphasis, range and possibility. Hope that makes sense and you get some more input in your thread -it's a big question and probably deserves a lot more time and attention than I can give it right now.
Cheers, Deb
"

thanks again deb for broadening my understanding and making me dig deeper to understand the use of voc more completely. i just recently finished reading james herschel holdens book 'a history or horoscopic astrology' 2006 2nd edition. void of course moon gets mentioned about 5 times in this book, and of the 5 times, only the first seems to suggest the usage of this concept in a more general application towards natal astrology. i was trying to recall if i had read any mention of voc by valens and i couldn't recall.. i looked in robbins version of the ptolemy translation of tetrabiblios and see no mention of it there.. it first shows up in holdens book page 74 where he points out firmicus mentioning this in book 4. i will now quote what firmicus has to say from his book 'matheseos libri V111 jean rhys bram translation.

page 123 V111 IF THE MOON IS MOVING TOWARD NOTHING (VOID OF COURSE)
1.If the Moon is so located that she is moving toward nothing (void of course), is in aspect to no planet, and there is no benefic planet on the angles, this will make paupers destitute of all necessities, without means of daily life. They will beg for a living and are always in need of a stranger's help to sustain life. They will always be inferior to their parents; and their bodies sickly. They suffer from infected wounds or malignant humors under the skin which attack their joints, especially in the Moon, "running through a vacuum," which the Greeks call cenodromon (empty course), is in the opposition or square aspect to Mars or Saturn on the first or third day, or if malefic planets are on the angles.
2. If in this situation the Moon is aspected by benefic planets, the natives will be stripped of everything, be worn out with constant toil, seeking a livelihood with labor and sweat. As soon as they come near to good fortune, even from the highest step she casts them down again. Sometimes she leads them to the top but does not allow them to grasp good fortune. For when the Moon is void of course she involves th early years in wretched misfortunes. But after she has for a time troubled the body and mind and ruined their youth with many crimes, dragged them here and there in miserable journeys, then she bestows good fortune equal to the mishaps of youth.
3. But if the Moon, moving through a vacuum, comes into aspect with Mars or Saturn, she will produce unfortunate epileptics, or lunatics, oppressed by various kinds of bad luck from the beginning of their life to the end. The natives will be miserable paupers, barely covered by ragged clothing, guardians of tombs; or they will be punished by perpetual imprisonment.

it is an interesting passage in so far as the idea of 2. and the moon being aspected by benefic planets implies is apparently the opposite of the idea of void of course moon as i have understood it!

the other 4 examples in holdens book clearly demonstrate the use of the void of course moon in relation to questions - horary. the modern use of voc seems to be a blur based on the renewed interest and fascination with william lilly who seemed to primary do horary astrology. some students of lilly would appear to want to apply this technique natally and i continue to be curious on the use of this technique outside the realm of horary. i will comment more later as i have to leave for a bit!

one last comment. the emphasis on the moon is not just particular to horary as i see it.. reading these older writers one quickly gets the impression the emphasis on the moon is hugely important to the interpretation of any chart.. book 4 of firmicus is testimony to how important the moon is. horary seems to have taken off somewhere later in time!


Last edited by james_m on Fri May 31, 2013 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

continuing on...

it seems almost impossible to find a 'void of course' moon if one uses the outer planets! there was a recent discussion on the the definition of void of course which liberated it from some of the ideas i have read up until recently which partly explains this.. the boogie man seems to be in how one defines void of course moon, the moiety of the orb, what is separation and application and stuff like this.. here is a skyscript article that goes into all of this. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#mo

according to these definitions someone like elvis would not have a void of course moon given the moon is still separating from saturn, although in a different sign.. adb chart for elvis is here :http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Presley,_Elvis

on the other hand elizabeth 1 of england might qualify. adb chart here :http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Elizabeth_I,_Queen_of_England

i am not sure how relevant firimcus's description of a person with void of course moon is to elizabeth 1 of england. i am not a history buff and don't know enough of her life to know if the general description he gives qualifies.. it would seem like it doesn't.

the other examples in holdens 'history of horoscopic astrology' include examples of void of course include mentioning zahel, or sahl ibn bishrs use of the term for questions. guido bonati and ibn ezra are also used as examples in the same context : horary. albumasar example is in the same context. page 133 of holdens book includes a quote from ibn ezra in his book of wisdom chapter 8... "2. If the Moon is moving by itself ( void of course), that indicates any futile thing, and it signifies that anything which the asker requests can not possibly occur."
this example seems to be fairly clear in it's application in horary. one wonders how one applies this to natal astrology!!

perhaps 'void of course' is a useful technique for horary which is why i shows up in use in horary. finding an example for it in natal is rather difficult and as i was saying if one includes the use of the outer planets, along with the idea of planets separating regardless of whether they are in the same sign, based on the moiety of orb it is indeed very difficult to find an example of a void of course moon! perhaps the technique is best left for use in horary with it's present day emphasis of following the lead of lilly who also didn't use outer planets.

i am still curious if anyone can find an example where they believe they can apply the technique in natal astrology along the lines that fm seems to imply it's meaning as holding for a person born at such an inopportune time!

here is the link that deb gave for some historical quotes on the idea of 'void of course'. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/voc.html

dorotheus's definition if it were to include the outer planets would make it extremely difficult to find any chart with a void of course moon.

"Dorotheus (approx. 1st cent. AD)
"If you find the Moon void of all the planets, none of them aspects it, and none is in the ascendant or aspecting the ascendant, then this native is void of good in livelihood, possesses pain and hardship in the pursuit of what he needs."

- Carmen Astrologicum, 1.12.7 "
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lot to think about here - the Firmicus passage by itself could raise a big discussion. One point he demonstrates is that we shouldn't put too much emphasis on the Moon's lack of application as if this is the only thing that matters. It needs to be part of a very negative chart theme for the conditions that Firmicus describes to apply; ie., where the Moon lacks any sort of strength or positive contact to other planets and the chart also suffers in other ways. Hence, a benefic on an angle would negate the negative concern. We get a similar statement in horary, that a VOC Moon is not a problem if the main significators in the chart are strong and making an application to each other. We also get the comment that the Moon is not so afflicted by being VOC if it has essential strength by being in its own sign or exaltation, or the signs of Jupiter, and I wouldn't be surprised if that remark was intended to be relevant to the judgement of the Moon's strength in natal charts (though, I'm only guessing).

Re the apparent contradiction of Firmicus's second point - where he talks about the Moon, moving through a vacuum, but coming into aspect with Mars or Saturn.
The key to understanding what he means lies in dissecting the first point. Note the comment at the end, where he talks about when the Moon, "running through a vacuum," is in the opposition or square aspect to Mars or Saturn on the first or third day, or if malefic planets are on the angles.

This is what he means in the 2nd point and 3rd point also (the third bringing a repeat of emphasis to what he's described in the first). It gives the notion that initially, 'life goes hardly on' (so to speak) but misfortunes will be countered by fortunes in later life. (This reminds me of a point that Paulus makes, when he says that with the Moon we can consider arcs of application and separation up to 30°, but those within 3° are the strongest – then there is a decreasing efficacy for arcs of up to 7° and then 15°. Outside of that, we can only expect that notable events occur in late life – the wider the arc, the more time is expected to pass)

Anyway, back to Firmicus. He gives a more elaborate explanation in his third book, and describes what he means by the third day at, XIV.10:

Quote:
In all charts you must first observe the course of the Moon; not only on the first day on which the native begins the first steps of life, but with care the third day; notice what planet the Moon attaches herself to and with what aspect; toward whom and from whom she is moving. For on the third day the new-born infant absorbs his first nourishment. Thus, on the third day one must observe whether the Moon is diminished or full of light, and to what extent benefic and malefic planets are in aspect. For the third day, like the first, determines everything and in the same way. If this information is carefully collected we will never be confused or disturbed in explaining the fates of men. If anything seems to have been left out in this explanation we shall discuss it in our fourth book.


There’s great deal of information to be studied in Firmicus’s third and fourth book that relate to the passage you have quoted. The point I would make is that notion of the Moon being empty of contacts and not making any application is a condition that (historically at least) was relevant to most branches of astrology, but no one would just look at a natal chart and think that if the Moon was unable to perfect an aspect before it changed signs, the native was doomed.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi deb ,

thanks for discussing the first or third day at or after birth at some length here. it is yet another crinkle in the ideas that seem to have been in use and fallen away from use. i suppose one is going to take what they will from different authors.. how much of what we take is based on what we have already collected to build a body of astro knowledge might be much bigger factor that goes by without notice for many.

after reading firmicus maternus more last night i get the distinct impression of the importance of whether the moon was waxing or waning and as a consequence whether it was moving towards or separating from a diurnal or nocturnal planet as having much greater bearing that anyone seems to consider today. the diurnal/nocturnal consideration is very big as well. who if anyone considers the moon position on the 3rd day after birth anymore? i doubt anyone does. so much seems 'hard boiled' down to ''lilly said this'' and case is closed, lol...

i agree with you that putting too much emphasis on the moons lack of application seems misguided, but i think it is partly a consequence of the great interest in horary techniques and how one applies them to questions which is a direct result of the re-release of lillys christian astrology books in 1985. i don't know that it has the same pressing priority in natal astrology. i agree the moon is very significant to either..

i don't know that firmicus maternus was an actual astrologer, or was he a chronicler of astrological knowledge he had collected? it says he was a lawyer of the senatorial class on the back cover of this book i have. the introduction of this translation by jean rhys bram gives a good overview of the context in which the book was written.

i would like to re-emphasize the point you make at the end of your commentary which is worth repeating and to which i agree.

Deb wrote:
The point I would make is that notion of the Moon being empty of contacts and not making any application is a condition that (historically at least) was relevant to most branches of astrology, but no one would just look at a natal chart and think that if the Moon was unable to perfect an aspect before it changed signs, the native was doomed.


indeed! there are many more considerations that could be considered and which generally aren't by those who only follow lilly..
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do we define "an actual astrologer"? Does it mean that someone has to make it their income, or sole source of income or professional pursuit? To me, an actual astrologer is someone who shows passion or involvement in the subject. Firmicus does discuss charts in his work and I believe he was a retired lawyer when he wrote that text - but even if he was a working lawyer and just wrote the text in his spare time out of interest .... he's an actual astrologer in my estimation, for sure.

Paulus shows the same emphasis on the lunar state in his work, saying something like (I'm remembering) without studying the applications and separations of the Moon we can't say anything about the conditions, quality and length of life. The prenatal lunation was also very important, as well as the phases as you've noted.

I think we're in agreement that the best we can get for a definition is something that holds the most consistency (in loose terms) over time, and that definition is pretty useless in practice unless its seen as something that's only part of a much bigger picture. What causes a multitude of problems, is trying to squeeze all the vital information that the Moon has to offer, into one trite little definition, the net result of which is supposed to equal nothing Confused By the popular modern definition my natal Moon is void of course, but thankfully I know that it's actually a fully functioning part of my chart, so I don't have to not bother to kick myself for being a waste of space.

John Frawley comes out with some great remarks. On this topic he says:
Quote:
It is rumoured that Quentin Taratino was inspired to make Reservoir Dogs by the sight of astrologers discussing the meaning of Void of Course. It is quite simple, and need not involve bloodshed

But then he gives a quite simple definition, which only adds to the confusion (for which he really needs shooting). Lala Happy (That's a joke)

Referring to Lilly is often useful; only following Lilly is not normal, but I don't think it would apply to many. At least I hope not!
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i come to the site and i see the forum host has changed her name to deb coley and the site is now called lillyscript, i will get concerned, LOL..

i like how you define an astrologer. it is refreshing! regardless if firmicus was or wasn't only matters in so far as he might have practical experience with these ideas or not. he may have just been passing on ideas he had collected from other sources, but regardless we are left to do what we will or won't with any of it. i think the idea of the 'empty course' or the greek term used for this, has changed quite a bit over the past eons. i enjoyed the conversation from about a month ago that broke free of the more limited ideas of void of course. mind you people like yourself seem to have a better and less restricted view on it which is also refreshing.

i still believe the way that this concept 'void of course' has been used since at least sahl ibn bishrs time has been for horary only. i see no examples where it is used towards natal astrology, although it did rear it's (ugly) head on that now locked thread. i just don't think that was the intended idea behind voc, but i remain open to finding out more on it. thanks for the conversation.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely wouldn't go as far as that but see your point. Gadbury's Collection of Nativities shows that he regularly notes things like the Moon "a" or "a vacua cursus" (from / to nothing) in natal charts and revolutions. If you have a copy you can see on p.88 where he says in the judgement (of the Moon) "here she is separated from vacua cursus". There are many examples of the Moon being noted as separating or applying to nothing, but can't see one (in my quick glance) where it is described as separated from nothing and applying to nothing too. Would have been interesting if there had been. Without checking I'm pretty sure other historical collections of nativities (for example Cardan's and Junctinus') do the same, and would consider it relevant if the revolution had the Moon in that state. It's not something I've given a lot of thought to before now. Wonder if other contributors have examples to hand - might be worth posting a quick question in the traditional forum. I'll keep it in mind and come back to this if I fall across anything interesting.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
There are may examples of the Moon being noted as
separating or applying to nothing, but can’t see one (in my quick glance)
where it is described as separated from nothing and applying to nothing too.


Hi Deb,

might the following be an explanation? The focus is on the fact whether or not a planet is void of course. To say – in English or in Latin – to separate from void, a vacuo, (i.e. not to be void of course now, but having been void before, now not being void any longer), or to say to go to void, ad vacuum, (i.e. not to be void of course now, but soon) is a differentiation of the actual state of a planet as to his past or future state of being void of course and its problems for the planet.

Adding the differentiations together, which premise or even contain the term, only to avoid to name it simply for itself, seems to be too far-fetched in my opinion, than that the authorities should have chosen this way of describing the term of void of course, so that you could find it in their writings.

To be void of course is with Firmicus Maternus, Matheseos libri VIII ) „per vacuum currens" (IV, VIII), or „per vacuum cursus suos dirigere" (IV, XV), and not a vacuo ad vacuum currens or a vacuo ad vacuum cursus suos dirigere.

Cheers, Johannes
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks deb. i don't have a copy of gadburys book, so i am unable to read the content you cite. if you come across some example i would be curious. if someone includes the use of the outer planets it becomes even more difficult to find an example of a voc moon.

here is my ongoing theory which may or may not be valid.. certain astrological ideas/techniques were taken and made a priority for reading horary charts. their use in natal astrology from the past is speculative in that i can find no examples which is part of the reason i think they are primarily designed for horary as opposed to natal. firmicus does discuss the empty course or void of course and what it means if the moon is moving thru this area as being a negative unless it is offset with a benefic in the angles - ascendant or midheaven. valens and ptolemy so far as i know make no mention of this. it is only later writers beginning with sahl ibn bisher who do and they are focused on questions/horary.

the astrological idea reception, of which there are many, is another technique fundamental to horary. i am curious to know of it's historical use in natal and curious if anyone could given any example on this as well.
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Morpheus



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Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we see a Horary Chart, we are sure that there is some one, somewhere who has asked a question.

We are born, we marry, we raise children, we are happy and we are sad. This myriad of experience tells us and our ever searching brain tells us that maybe we are the world. We are important. What if, we were just a question? Our whole existence.


What about a Birth Chart? Who is asking the question

Has God while tossing the soul into this world has silently asked a question?
Has the mother asked a question? (Will he be famous? Will he relieve me of my abject misery? )
Has the society asked a question?

We have the chart but we dont know what the question was. But one thing is for sure. If Void of Course Moon is seen in the birth chart and it has some meaning. Perhaps the living soul has not been able to live to the true potential or true vocation. Smile

This was my two pence.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gryffindor - thanks for sharing your philosophical ruminations!!!

here is a letter i wrote to james herchel holden..

>>hello!
i would like to ask james holden a question on the history of the use of
the idea of 'void of course' moon.. my understanding is that is begin in
connection with horary astrology.. i am curious about the use of it in
natal astrology and just if and when he knows when this started? thanks!
james nanaimo b.c. canada

here is james herchel holdens response:

Dear James,

Thank you for your query.
As you say, the Void of Course Moon is a standard feature of Horary Astrogy; its use goes back to the founders of horoscopic astrology two thousand years ago. Its possible application to Natal Astrology has only been advocated by several 20th Century astrologers.
In my opinion this is invalid because the time frame of a Horary chart is days or weeks, while the time frame of a Natal chart is the entire lifetime of the native! Thus, if the Moon is void of course in a Horary chart, it means that nothing will happen within a short time to alter the presemt situation. But in a Natal chart it would mean that nothing would ever happen in the native's entire life to alter the situation at birth! This is obviously incorrect, as there will usually be many changes in a person's life.
Best regards,
James Herschel Holden
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Geoffrey



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Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Herchel Holden wrote:


In my opinion this is invalid because the time frame of a Horary chart is days or weeks, .....


If I may be permitted a quick detour, this idea that horary astrology is only valid over short time scales seems quite common. Where does it originate?
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johannes susato



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Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following two quotations are not authorised by James Herschel Holden!

James Herschel Holden wrote:
[...] the time frame of a Horary chart is days or weeks, while the time frame of a Natal chart is the entire lifetime of the native!
Had only Lilly written in Latin, by translation into American/English his obviously dissenting opinion could have been known perhaps . . .

James Herschel Holden wrote:
Thus, if the Moon is void of course in a Horary chart, it means that nothing will happen within a short time to alter the presemt situation. But in a Natal chart it would mean that nothing would ever happen in the native's entire life to alter the situation at birth! This is obviously incorrect, as there will usually be many changes in a person's life.
At least Firmicus Maternus seems to think a little bit more differentiatedly. But was not James Herschel Holden translator of Fimicus Maternus recently?

Johannes
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe i am making a mistake and being unkind to james holden for quoting a private response to a question i had asked thru the af of a's website.. he is not here to elaborate so i ask those raising questions to forgive me for sharing this bit of information which i thought some appreciate reading.. i contacted him thru the af of a and it was thru a secretary that i was given the response.. i am sure he is a busy guy and i can't answer for him in response to what i have quoted.

geoffrey, i had sent you a private message a week or so ago as i thought you might have some thoughts that you could share on this topic, but i don't know that you received that pm from me. if you would like to comment more, i would be interested. perhaps the idea that much of horary is short term in nature is misplaced. i don't doubt that events that happen over a short time frame can have huge impact on a persons life and they don't need to be of long duration, but i know this isn't answering your question either.

he did qualify his comment with the word 'opinion'...
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Geoffrey



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Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
maybe i am making a mistake and being unkind to james holden for quoting a private response to a question i had asked ....


There is a tradition in some circles of academia that if you are going to quote from an article or book, you should seek the author's permission first. Coming as I do from the hard sciences, where the cut and thrust of debate can be settled with much more certainty (theory can be compared with experiment), such an idea belongs firmly in the past. If you express a view in public - particularly in a peer reviewed journal - then it is there to be torn down as sloppy or outdated, or used by others to support their own work, which is how scholarly investigation proceeds.

The fairest way to acknowledge the work of others is to quote the relevant passage and cite the work from which it is taken, so that the reader can place the quote in context for themselves and decide for themselves if the author is justified in using the quoted work in the way he or she has.

I think you did that James, so I do not think any apology is necessary. There is, too, a long history of citing 'private communications' in academic literature, so you should not be put off by that fact. Anyway, there does not seem to be any such thing as 'private communication' these days. In this case, you were seeking clarification on a piece which Holden wrote and was in the public domain. I think there is a justification in concluding that Holden's clarification should also be in the public domain.

Quote:
geoffrey, i had sent you a private message a week or so ago as i thought you might have some thoughts that you could share on this topic, but i don't know that you received that pm from me.


There was a time when a PM was alerted by an email to the recipient, but this seems to happen no longer....
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