romantic affairs not just 5th house matter?

1
I always assumed that romance/flings/etc were always strictly relegated to the 5th house, however now it is my understanding that maybe it is not so clear cut. For example in the article below it makes numerous allusions to venus/mars aspects being a major factor in promiscuity and it seems to imply that this promiscuity occurs independently of the state of the natives 5th house.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/love.html


Can anybody substantiate this? I mean I understand that the presence of particular mars/venus aspects can increase the desire for sex/lust or whatever, but in an objective sense does it also increase romantic opportunities for the native independently of the 5th house?

2
I use the 7th for all romantic questions. For one thing, the 7th signifies partners in general (including business), but also romantic questions aren't always clear-cut as being serious or flings to either the astrologer or querent.

3
The association of the Fifth House with romance is almost entirely modern. Neither Bonatti nor Lilly list romantic issues in connection with the 5th House. Lilly does say that the 5th is associated with alehouses and taverns. Also, it is the "rejoicing" of Venus, a meaning which goes back to Hellenistic times. Since Venus is the natural significator of romance, and since the 5th has to do with pleasures (alehouses and taverns), it is not too difficult to see how the link between the 5th and romantic pleasures may have arisen.

I have seen "embraces of courtesans" listed for the 5th in certain Hindu astrology texts, though not very early works, I must add -- only from about the 17th century.

It should be remembered that Alan Leo, the forefather of modern astrology, took a lot of his inspiration from India, and may have been aware of these Hindu astrology works.

In any case, from Hellenistic times until after Lilly, romantic encounters of any kind were always placed in the 7th House or assessed through the placement and aspects of Venus, who is the natural significator of romance.

So yes, Mars-Venus connections are connected with promiscuity. In traditional India, some conservatively minded guys won't even THINK of marrying a girl with a Mars-Venus conjunction.

4
P.S. Not sure why Kim Farnell thinks of the 5th House link with romance as "traditional." I can't find it in any ancient source. She cites a number of 19th century sources, so I may have been wrong in mentioning Alan Leo -- apparently it's earlier. But Lilly in the late 17th century doesn't mention it at all.

5
EPurdue wrote:I use the 7th for all romantic questions. For one thing, the 7th signifies partners in general (including business), but also romantic questions aren't always clear-cut as being serious or flings to either the astrologer or querent.
I always assumed this only applied to horary, but also to natal as well?


The association of the Fifth House with romance is almost entirely modern. Neither Bonatti nor Lilly list romantic issues in connection with the 5th House. Lilly does say that the 5th is associated with alehouses and taverns. Also, it is the "rejoicing" of Venus, a meaning which goes back to Hellenistic times. Since Venus is the natural significator of romance, and since the 5th has to do with pleasures (alehouses and taverns), it is not too difficult to see how the link between the 5th and romantic pleasures may have arisen.

I have seen "embraces of courtesans" listed for the 5th in certain Hindu astrology texts, though not very early works, I must add -- only from about the 17th century.

It should be remembered that Alan Leo, the forefather of modern astrology, took a lot of his inspiration from India, and may have been aware of these Hindu astrology works.

In any case, from Hellenistic times until after Lilly, romantic encounters of any kind were always placed in the 7th House or assessed through the placement and aspects of Venus, who is the natural significator of romance.

So yes, Mars-Venus connections are connected with promiscuity. In traditional India, some conservatively minded guys won't even THINK of marrying a girl with a Mars-Venus conjunction.
this is fascinating, I had no idea that the idea of the 5th house being associated with romantic matters was a modern invention. Still though I'm having hard time getting my head around the fact that the 5th house is completely devoid of any connection with sex or romance. Can this really be true? It just seems so remarkable to me. In that case though, you are pretty much saying that to assess a natives romantic luck (or lack thereof) it would be more accurate to examine the state of the 7th house?? (or their venus?)

6
I had no idea that the idea of the 5th house being associated with romantic matters was a modern invention. Still though I'm having hard time getting my head around the fact that the 5th house is completely devoid of any connection with sex or romance. Can this really be true?
I didn't mean to go that far. The fact that the 5th is the house of rejoicing of Venus (natural significator of erotic things) and of pleasures (such as taverns and parties) does seem to lead to the notion that there is at least some connection with romance -- though certainly in terms of interludes rather than major relationships, which always go to the 7th.

I had thought that the idea of the 5th as a house of romance only went back as far as Alan Leo (1890s), but after reading Kim Farnell's article here on skyscript, I can see that I was mistaken, and that the association goes back at least 25 or 30 years earlier than Leo.

7
Hi Kenneth,

Whilst I agree with your perspective of the 7th house being relevant for relationship matters, the association of the fifth house with love and joyful emotion does have historical significance - because of the Venus connection that you just mentioned. In my book on the houses I make the point that many of its specific significations derive from the association of this house with Venus, which rejoices in it. An extract which shows some of the historical associations given in historical works is given below:
Temples, pp.38-40 wrote:... in the case of the 5th house, we have an interesting example of how planets associated through the concept of house rulership or ?joy? have reflected their meanings into the houses, and how those meanings have modified in accordance with alteration of the planetary associations. Even if we accept that much of the 5th house?s fortunate reputation is derived from the trine aspect to the ascendant, the specifics of the meanings used by authors after Manilius are clearly Venusian in origin. Firmicus is quite clear in informing us that classical astrologers called the 5th house the ?House of Good Fortune? because it is the house of Venus. Consider some of its traditional associations: ?
? The principle rulership of the 5th house is in signifying pregnancy and children, as befits Venus, the ?goddess of fertility? of whom the classical historian Pliny wrote:
? its influence is the cause of the birth of all things upon earth; at both its risings it scatters a genital dew with which it not only fills the conceptive organs of the Earth but also stimulates those of all animals.
? The 11th century Arabic astrologer, Al Biruni, called it the house of joy, clothes, pleasure and friends ? all of which fall naturally under the rulership of Venus.
? The 12th century Hebrew astrologer, Ibn Ezra, describes an association with pleasure, food, drink, gifts and diplomats.
? The 16th century astrologer, Claude Dariot, used the 5th house for signification of love, ambassadors and gifts.
? The 17th century astrologer William Lilly called it ?the house of Pleasure? and associated it with taverns, plays, recreation and sport ? all of which he also ascribed to the natural signification of Venus (including sport as a pleasurable, recreational activity).

In every instance the derivation from Venus is striking. Modern astrology books that suggest the 5th house is the house of pregnancy and ?creativity? because it relates to the 5th sign, Leo, disregard the fact that Leo is marked throughout tradition as a sterile and barren sign ? in matters of pregnancy one of the main arguments to judge a denial of fertility. Reflection upon historical literature shows that few if any of the principal rulerships associated with the 5th house derive from Leo; the house has been indelibly tinged with the aura of Venus. It is significant that Manilius did not mention any of these rulerships in his description of the house. He did not place Venus there so had no reason to do so.
This is the English translation of what the French astrologer Dariot wrote in the 16th century :
ch.13 of his 'Brief Introduction' wrote:Of the fifth house named the house of children
The fifth is named the house of children and hath his siginification of them, of love, of ambassadors and messengers, and of gifts. The first lord of that triplicity siginifieth the children or their life; the second, love, the third, ambassadors, messengers or gifts.
I see the 5th house as being descriptive of romantic emotional states - so that (in horary, for example), if the 7th ruler is in the 5th, the partner in mind might be described as wanting romance rather than commitment; whilst if the 5th ruler is dignified and placed in the 7th, this could describe an enduring relationship which has a lot of love in it. But whenever a horary involves the querent asking about one other specific person who has attracted their attention then we are dealing with a 1st-7th house matter, which describes the nature of that one-to-one connection.

8
Thanks, Deb. I was aware of the 5th as a house of "pleasures" going back quite a ways and always assumed that this was, as you pointed out, due to the fact that Venus rejoices there. The quote you have given from Dariot is the earliest specific mention I have seen of romance and love as one of those "pleasures" -- Bonatti, for example, does not mention it and his thinking is more in line with the examples you have also given from al-Biruni and ibn Ezra. I wonder if there is anything earlier than Dariot?

9
I'm not sure - it would need someone to check the original wording of translated texts. For example, I quoted from the 16th century English translation of Dariot's work by Fabian Whithers - perhaps the original says something like 'amores' (I'm just guessing) or other words were used in older sources which could be translated as pleasures or bliss, etc. But the link between the 5th house and procreation seems to be well established - hence the connotations of the 5th house with sex and matters with amorous connotations.

10
From what I seen the 5th house seems to pop up often in horary questions. Often the ruler of the 7th will be placed in the 5th house of the querent or vice versa, or the 1st house rulers disposer will be placed in the 5th.

There is no definitive authority to draw upon with thought interpretation techniques as found in 'Search of the Heart', because they began to recede in use even within the medieval tradition; however, going over numerous post judged charts, seems to support their usage. Even Lillys.

Often in romance horarys the 5th house is signified using these techniques, and curiously the 2nd house is often prominent as well.

EDIT: For what its worth, the ruler of my 5th house in my nativity is within aspect of my asc. ruler within a few degrees. Nothing promiscuous -I am way too much of a prude for that, but romantic relations do seem to be prevalent in my life, and I do not exactly have to struggle to find them.

11
Deb wrote:I'm not sure - it would need someone to check the original wording of translated texts. For example, I quoted from the 16th century English translation of Dariot's work by Fabian Whithers - perhaps the original says something like 'amores' (I'm just guessing) or other words were used in older sources which could be translated as pleasures or bliss, etc. But the link between the 5th house and procreation seems to be well established - hence the connotations of the 5th house with sex and matters with amorous connotations.
In his Latin text (published in 1557) Dariot has not "amor/amores" but only "dilectiones", this term being more like esteem and regard or respect than love (?).

In his French text (published 1558) and probably his own translation, there is given "dilections" and, now added, "amours".

Johannes

12
so we can conclude that romantic affairs are mostly confined to the 5th house? Also another impression I am getting here is that the 5th house derives romantic connotations from venus, if that is true then wouldnt the placement and condition of natal venus also influence a natives lovelife in addition to the condition of his fifth house and its ruler?