Jean Sibelius / Juan

1
On another thread (that relates mostly to Topocentric Houses), http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0, Juan had given me some events in order to mystery rectify a chart using Polaris and Topocentric Primary Directions.

The chart ended up being that of Jean Sibelius and I arrived at an Ascendant of 24? 35' Virgo.

Now, the rectification birth time was found exclusively using Topocentric Primary Directions. Normally, (of course) when this is correct, there should be plenty of activation of Natal Angles at major events when looking with other (reliable) systems.

I have long found that, when the birth time is very accurate, that the diurnal charts show strong alignments between the diurnal Asc, MC, and Vertex and Natal positions in a meaningful way at events.

Though the rectification timing was completely arrived at through Primary Directions, I want to show his Natal chart activations for 4 of the main events that Juan shared with me, specifically the Death of Father, Marriage, Death of his Daughter, and his own Death.
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DEATH OF FATHER

Here, we see transiting Mars right on his MC at the timing of his Father's Death. Don't fail to notice the diurnal Vertex lining up with Saturn (natural symbol for Father and co-ruler of Sibelius' 4th House), the diurnal MC lining up with Pluto (natural death significator), and diurnal Asc lining up with his 4th House Jupiter (co-ruler of his 4th House). Diurnal Neptune opposite Node is right for a dissolving familial relationship under mournful circumstances, especially death with Neptune in the 8th.
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MARRIAGE

Here, we can't help but notice the Sun at the Midheaven, while Saturn and diurnal Vertex conjoin his Ascendant while diurnal MC squares the Asc. Jupiter opposes the Node (Ebertin, "marriage") while the diurnal Asc contacts the Node as well. Also notice Venus sextiling/trining the Asc/Dsc axis.
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DEATH OF DAUGHTER

Here, we have Saturn in the 4th (symbolic of negative events in the family) making an opposition to Natal Uranus, which rules the 5th House (children). Notice Mars in the 5th (children) sextiling the 8th House cusp (issues of Death), which Mars rules. Pluto (as well as South Node) opposite Sun and Neptune squaring the Asc also relate with this event. As well, notice transiting Mercury on the diurnal Descendant, with both lining up to oppose Sibelius' Natal Moon.
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SIBELIUS' DEATH

Here, we have Saturn conjoining Mars (Ebertin's two planets that together symbolize death), with Mars ruling Sibelius' 8th House. The diurnal Vertex is aligned with his 4th House cusp (endings). The diurnal Asc tightly squares Saturn (co-ruler of Sibelius' 4th House). The diurnal MC squares Jupiter (the other co-ruler of his 4th House). Notice also the South Node's alignment with Natal Pluto, transiting Pluto's alignment with his 12th House cusp (Noel Tyl in Timing of Critical Illness highlights Pluto and the 12th House as major keys for critical illness). The Neptune-Sun aspect is relevant since it symbolizes weakness and illness.
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Though some might quibble with particular aspects, etc.; my point is not to prove anything and everything specifically. Rather, I am attempting to show that the rectification chart, timing arrived at completely through Primary Directions, also shows corroboration of this time (and these Angles/Cusps) through Transits and diurnal charts as well. These are two different systems (one based mostly on the Earth's ROTATION and the other based on the Earth's REVOLUTION) that show agreement in the Angles/Cusps.

Have fun!

James
Last edited by Atlantean on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

2
Hello Juan,

Let's use a very time-sensitive dynamic system (Age Harmonics) and see how it holds up with the Primary Direction-derived birth time.

For the Death of Father, the Age Harmonic chart shows Saturn conjunct MC. [Perfect symbolism] (My chart also shows Saturn conjunct MC in the Age Harmonic at the death of my Father.) [Look at the odds of this happening coincidentally... Saturn, multiplied by Sibelius' age at the exact death of his Father takes us to the same degree that Sibelius' MC multiplied by the exact age at death of his Father. Odds are 1/360. Now, for that to also line up in my chart the exact same way, since they're mutually exclusive gives 1/360 * 1/360 = 1/129,600 = 0.00077%]

For the Marriage, the Age Harmonic chart shows Jupiter trine Node (Ebertin, "marriage") as well as AH Venus trine Natal Jupiter (Ebertin, "act of getting engaged or married").

For the Death of Daughter, the Age Harmonic chart shows Venus opposite Vertex and Pluto square Node (Ebertin, "suffering through association with others" or more plainly, death (Pluto) in the family (Node)). AH Pluto also opposes Sibelius' Natal Node.

For his own Death, the Age Harmonic chart shows a Saturn-SouthNode-Uranus conjunction, all opposite the 8th. Additionally, these all are sesquisquare Mars. (Mars-Saturn as "Death", Mars-Uranus as "struggle for survival, injury", Ebertin).

In Age Harmonics, a very slight error is MULTIPLIED, since we are multiplying the planetary position by the person's exact age at the event. For instance, a 0? 5' error in the Natal turns into an over 7? error by the time of Sibelius' death. Only aspects of 1? or less are utilized in this system. Age Harmonics are like Primary Directions in the sense that, without a very, very accurate birth time, neither system is usable.

Take care

James

3
hi james,
using the polaris rectified time with the 24 virgo 35 ascendant - i get this with a time of 0:17:46 am Tavastehus, finland, and a death of the father on july 31 1868, in order for me to get the diurnal(transiting) angles to line up with what you have in your chart at the top of 4 cancer 59 ascendant, 11 aquarius 47 midheaven and mars at 21 gemini 03, i need to enter in the date aug 1st 1868 0:18am to the same location in the dynamic biwheel feature i like to use in solar fire..
what i find mystifying is how you appear to be relying on transiting angles(including the vertex which is essentially one more and which moves very quickly!) to solidify the death of his dad to a specific time that is technically on the following date from the death of his father given as july 31 1868.. and i also am wanting to point out how falling back on these transiting angles seems like an oversight on your part unless you have some solid information on the death of his father happening specifically on august 1 1868 at close to 0:18am!!! i will consider looking at the other charts once i get some clarity on what you are doing with this one first!!

cheers james

4
Hello james_m

Re: "...0:17:46 am..."

I have four seconds difference. Try Dec 7, 1865 with 22:39:55 UT. Then we should have the same... [I have H?meenlinna for the birth place]

Re: "...what i find mystifying is how you appear to be relying on transiting angles(including the vertex which is essentially one more and which moves very quickly!)..."

As I specifically explained in the post, these are diurnal positions. Those positions of Asc, MC, and Vertex are specifically for that day. That they line up so regularly at events (in relevant ways) adds confirmation to the original Angles, since the diurnals are derived from that original birth time. (and are listed for that very reason)

Re: "...once i get some clarity on what you are doing with this one first!!"

I will try to help you understand whatever it is you find confusing. If nothing else, you've been exposed to diurnals, which is more than worth the price of admission. :D

Take care,

James

5
thanks james,
but the concept of diurnal s is now more opaque then ever.. what is that based on if not transit data? ps - all the other data in the outer window is transit data!
thanks
james

6
Hello james_m,

Re: "...what is that based on if not transit data?"

The diurnals are (of course) based on transiting positions, but they are event charts that have the date of the event, but the location and birth time of the Natal. Why this is important is that it makes the Asc, MC, and Vertex cycle around the chart one time from birthday to birthday.

As I've mentioned, these alignments help confirm the birth time and if you are sure of the birth time, they can help in narrowing down predictive times.

As examples, here are some events from my life (the chart I know best), followed by the diurnal alignments:

Death of Father, MC conjunct IC, Vertex conjunct Moon

Death of Mother, IC square Pluto, Asc square Mars

Birth of Twin Daughters, MC conjunct Mercury, Asc square Mercury

Go overseas for first time, Asc sesquisquare Jupiter

Got married, Asc square Venus

Birth of Son, Vertex opposite Moon, Asc square Vertex

Work related accident/injury, MC conjunct Asc

Resign from Postal Service, Asc opposite Venus, MC conjunct Vertex

Move overseas, IC conjunct Sun

Birth of Daughter, Asc sesquisquare Venus

Death of ex-Wife, Vertex conjunct Node, IC sesquisquare Pluto, Asc square IC

Have fun!

James

7
thanks for confirming the diurnals are indeed transits.. the angles will transit around the chart once a day or 365 times a year. why do you say they cycle around the chart one time from birthday to birthday?
thanks
james
Atlantean wrote:Hello james_m,

Re: "...what is that based on if not transit data?"

The diurnals are (of course) based on transiting positions, but they are event charts that have the date of the event, but the location and birth time of the Natal. Why this is important is that it makes the Asc, MC, and Vertex cycle around the chart one time from birthday to birthday.



James

8
james_m,
I had to jiggle it a bit too because I had entered the time using a timezone. Local time vs modern timezones is another source of error.

diurnals are transit charts set for the day of the transit, using the time of birth. The diurnal MC will approximately maintain a relative position with the transit Sun.

in 1 year, the diurnal MC will go around once.

a couple chart-to-eye observations for the death of the father.
(ie this is not a technique I habitually use):
The diurnal topocentric 12th house 135? the natal Sun.(+0?04')
The diurnal placidus 12th house 135? the natal Sun.(+0?30')
The diurnal koch 12th house 180? the natal Sun.(-0?05')

9
thanks for chiming in ariondys,

i understand what james, or polaris is attempting to find the 'best' time and this is more complicated then just working with a transit chart for the day.. however whether someone can explain the process clearly or not, i am not so sure about. i will continue to ask questions.

depending on what time a person uses the moving angles will be at different degree distances to one another and may connect with the planets directly on the times of important events in a persons life.

if the main focal point to the father's death the passing mars at the conjectured midheaven, or is it a cluster that won't show up in any of the other 24 x 60 minute spots? my curiousity would like to know!

also, is one event weighed more strongly then another or are many of them all weighed the same in terms of significance?

i mostly would like to know why chart 1 was given with the emphasis on the angles making connections to the planets. was that due the idea that this particular time has more of a cluster of tie in's then other times? i can't see that just off the one chart at this point and i continue to wonder why the transit data is relying on a date one day later then the date of the fathers death..

one last question.. is this polaris info, or is this info that james has arrived at? or is it a bit of both?

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james_m wrote: whether someone can explain the process clearly or not, i am not so sure about. i will continue to ask questions.
I'm going to regard "the main focal point to the father's death" as the primary directs because
Atlantean wrote: the rectification birth time was found exclusively using Topocentric Primary Directions.
and the diurnal is just one of many alternative systems one can try to verify the testimony of the primary directions.

My 1st instinct was the marriage. I found alternative things. progressed angle to Cupido for example.

This is Astro displaying the TPD of the date of the father's death - and all the static that goes along with it to slightly beyond the specified orb, (it hurts the brain statistically to look at TPDs using one 1 event.)
I have highlited the pertinent direction.
Image

also, is one event weighed more strongly then another or are many of them all weighed the same in terms of significance?
I can recall Atlantean saying the events get equal weight in Polaris.
i mostly would like to know why chart 1 was given with the emphasis on the angles making connections to the planets. was that due the idea that this particular time has more of a cluster of tie in's then other times? i can't see that just off the one chart at this point and i continue to wonder why the transit data is relying on a date one day later then the date of the fathers death..
it's not one day late. I had the same problem until I fixed the mode in which I had entered data for the chart.
Last edited by Ariondys on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

12
ariondys,

i know what james(atlantean) has said regarding arriving at the time he did - primary direction data with topocentric primary directions, but atlantean james has not shared that data with us here, but something else..

i acknowledge arriving at a rectified time is no easy task and could be something suited to an astrology program as well, but i continue to remain skeptical on the work i have seen so far.
Ariondys wrote:t's not one day late. I had the same problem until I fixed the mode in which I had entered data for the chart.
at 18 minutes after midnight puts it into the next day for me.. regardless as i don't completely understand what james is hoping to prove with transit data, i will continue to wait to see what he has to say about concluding what he does with the information and charts he is sharing here.. thanks!