16
Geoffrey stated:
Since you put out a call for precision Clinton, let me start with a short geography lesson. I am not a 'Highlander'. I live in the Borders of Scotland (see 'Location' to the left) and the soft, rolling hills of Border country are called the Scottish Uplands. One hundred miles to the North, the urbanised corridor between Edinburgh and Glasgow is called the Scottish Lowlands. And to the North of that (another fifty miles) starts the Highlands.
Geoffrey, many USA towns were named after the towns in Europe, and I used to live a short distance from an Americanized Glasgow(certainly it must have Scottish origins) in the cold tough state of Montana, a state where they symbolicly think of that state as nearly a separate nation, being it was established with the Sun in Scorpio, and they are very phallic there like the males are who have a natal Apollo in Sco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow,_Montana#History

http://www.glasgowmontana.com/glasgowMontanaHistory.php

Geoffrey:
As an American, given the size of your country, you may reasonably think that a few hundred miles here or there is not worth quibbling about. But when you realise how much blood has been spilt down the centuries here in Scotland fighting over those miles, you begin to appreciate that in terms of history, a Scottish mile is a very long way.
Having taken an extensive English History course by corresondence, one that the secretary of that professor said she had a 4 point average(straight 'A' for excellence) before she took that course and recieved a B grade, I can greatly appreaciate the Cancer derived history of Great Brittain and it's people from before the legendary Naval King Alfred to beyond the Scorpio warrior Winston Churchill and the heroic dertirmination of England's people.

I only wish Mel Gibson had geared his epic of William Wallace more toward an English audience rather than Americanizing to capitalize on U.S. citizens as in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr_OpFxCx-A

But then Mel's Horoscope with Luna in the 4th echoes of his nationalism:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/natal-ch ... gibson.php

Sir Geoffrey, I'm quite certain we are all honored when you get on a roll in the pursuit of horary excellence and give testimony of the Cancerian historic past of Deb's islands of her homeland, and your own Scorpio warrior heritage!

***So Julz87, fill us in,what is the nature of this relationship if it is not romantic(7th house), help us out, we are largely in the dark and need you to illuminate the room by lighting the candles of what is the nature of this relationship?***

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise Men truly know how little they know
Last edited by Clinton Soule on Thu May 02, 2013 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

17
In response to Paul our Moderator's last post via this thread:

I had stated:
And Yes, Gryffindor in respect I'd love to hear quotes and the sources you have studied as astro sibling Paul has stated in his post at the top of the 'Horary & Electional Forum' page that Deb inspired.
And Paul asked:
I'm not sure what you mean here.
Paul this should sum it up, my aqu positions must be kicking in again, oh dear me: GRIN

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7260
Guidelines we wish to emphasise

The general forum guidelines apply to this forum also, but there are a number that we would like to emphasise:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/read.html

Quote:When including chart data in your posts please include the place name, (including state if necessary - and co-ordinates if possible), time and time-zone used. Also give the degree ascending so that other astrologers can verify that they are working with the chart that you are using.

When quoting from texts, remember to acknowledge your source, and include relevant page references. And please use traditionally established sources whenever possible.
.............snip....
Treat one another with respect
Above all else, remember to treat others with dignity and respect, especially when other people's view or opinions differ from your own. We want everyone to enjoy their experience on Skyscript and for it to be as pleasant as it is informative. From time to time heated debates may occur on the forums, but remember that others who hold views different to your own or who contradict you are likely to be just as equally passionate about the subject as you are.
In other words horoscope data is nice to see in order that others may calculate the chart as well.

And, the source and citation gives more weight than just stating an oppinion without references of where the oppinion came from.

Clinton Garrett Soule

18
Hi Clinton,


http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7260
When quoting from texts, remember to acknowledge your source, and include relevant page references. And please use traditionally established sources whenever possible.
.............snip....
(emphasized by me)

I am not quoting from any text but relying on professional experience as a Horary Practitioner. In the same thread PD has written something regarding South Node conjunct Venus which I have noted for further experimentation. I have grown up from being a committed student in 2007 to a Practitioner, so expect me to rely more on 'experience' rather than texts. :)
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

19
Gryffindor, I am understanding you may be refering to this quote by Lady Pankajdubey:
11th lord venus is conjunct south node- that shows something seriously wrong with the friend that you do not know yet .Another pointer to this hidden thing coming out is the antiscion connection between your lord-moon and Pluto in the 6th(some consider Pluto as co-ruler of scorpio-the sign on the 5th).
For some reason there is very strong 6th house connection in this chart.
Regarding the above Lord Gryffindor has stated:
I am not quoting from any text but relying on professional experience as a Horary Practitioner. In the same thread PD has written something regarding South Node conjunct Venus which I have noted for further experimentation.
First let me state in case anyone in Europe and Britain may be offended by the *term Lord or Lady* addressed to anyone as I well know in England there is quite a division between Lords and Commons, in Parliament or otherwise, and there could be some caste (jupiter)bigotry held by many.

But Apollo is the Lord of Leo, as the Devil(Mars) is the lord of Aries and Scorpio. Just as Luna is the Lady of Cancer and Anthrodite is the Lady of Tau and Libra. So Panka I assume you are a Lady unlike Vivian E. Robson who wrote from Ramsey's or Ramesay's works whom is actually a man with a somewhat feminine name.

Lady Pankajdubey and Lord Gryffindor, I am well aware many Ultra-Trads are very offended with John Frawley's mentioning the Outers though as our beloved Johannes has pointed out recently '...Outers by Frawley Do Not rule house cusps....' And it is Not Traditionalism at all to allow the Outers to rule cusps by any of the Contemporary Traditionalist's writting or practicing today to my knowledge. This is a Moderne technique that many Trads may regard as Feral-like, from those whom wrote who may have misunderstood the Ancients or Lilly and came up with their own off-beat methods unlike Lady Olivia Barclay's revival to Traditionalism as Lord Geoffrey has pointed out very recently.

I am also very humbled when one like the Contemporary Traditionalist, Paul Langeveld of the Netherlands, recently passed away, who was a slave under the Nazi regime, who off-list wrote me with something he wished to pass on that was Not Traditional but worked for him. His dedication and devotion to Traditionalism is *a jewel* of which he passes wisdom even if Not pre-1700(trad) when passed to another.

I'm sure many Modernes are hiding in the closet aboard this Forum, yet as you may understand Deb has provided that the advocates of Traditionalism will defend their stance to the letter. But the fact Deb allows the Modernes to speak out must mean she and her appointed judges whom we call Moderators, whom act in a sheriff(derived from Shires Reeve)-like manner to maintain a great horary debate environment and tolerate the Modernes oppinions provided they can take the heat in this symbolic kitchen of our horary cookbook.

So when the Ultra-Mods are ready, put it to the test!

But I personally, to be fair and seek truth would wait until Luna was waxing as that wanning Moon grows Not much at all!

And I'm personally more interested in truth, which *Only the Creator of the stars* actually knows rather than sticking to my position if totally proved wrong!

But are there reasons why horary giants like Lady Oliva Barclay went back to the rays of Jupiter(tradition) and Saturn(structure) to become an ironclad Contemporary Traditionalist?

Or is it that Lady Pankajdubey is using a Frawley method as in the above quote from her of which at this time I have Not read upon Frawley but depend upon the integrity of his student's observations?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men trully know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-rea ... ?oid=22904

20
Clinton,



:'

I am waiting for following words from you...

You have a right to remain silent. Anything you say or do would be ....

Sir,

I see a Modern gun pointed by you at my saintly head lest it damage the golden halo, I assure you that I am as ultra-traditional as Lilly was in his times :lol: The Book written by John Gadbury has been locked in a closet and I am ready to take an oath of celibacy and traditionalism on 'The Horary Text Book' by John Frawley.

Clinton wrote:
And I'm personally more interested in truth, which *Only the Creator of the stars* actually knows rather than sticking to my position if totally proved wrong!
Who that Creator of the Stars might be? Gadbury. :)

I am not a fanatic. I keep on modifying my stance according to my current level of experience.


Next response should be from Lady Pankajdubey :)

Clinton wrote:
Gryffindor, I am understanding you may be refering to this quote by Lady Pankajdubey:
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

21
Clinton Soule wrote: Paul this should sum it up, my aqu positions must be kicking in again, oh dear me: GRIN

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7260
Guidelines we wish to emphasise

The general forum guidelines apply to this forum also, but there are a number that we would like to emphasise:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/read.html

Quote:When including chart data in your posts please include the place name, (including state if necessary - and co-ordinates if possible), time and time-zone used. Also give the degree ascending so that other astrologers can verify that they are working with the chart that you are using.

When quoting from texts, remember to acknowledge your source, and include relevant page references. And please use traditionally established sources whenever possible.
.............snip....
Treat one another with respect
Above all else, remember to treat others with dignity and respect, especially when other people's view or opinions differ from your own. We want everyone to enjoy their experience on Skyscript and for it to be as pleasant as it is informative. From time to time heated debates may occur on the forums, but remember that others who hold views different to your own or who contradict you are likely to be just as equally passionate about the subject as you are.
Thank you Clinton. However you seem to have either misunderstand Gryffindor or misunderstood my intentions with that sticky. First of all the part about citing your sources is for when we quote from another author - this is a common sense request.
Let me be clear then when you say:
"And Yes, Gryffindor in respect I'd love to hear quotes and the sources you have studied as astro sibling Paul has stated in his post at the top of the 'Horary & Electional Forum' page that Deb inspired. "

That this is incorrect. I have not stated anywhere that anyone needs to provide the sources they have studied. However, were a poster to extract a quote etc., it would be encouraged that he/she try to cite the source for this quote. As Gryffindor rightly points out, he is not citing a text.

To be explicit, I do not believe Gryffindor has violated anything I have written on that sticky page, except for the obvious personal choice regarding certain signification breaking, perhaps, from the tradition, or, at least, from Lilly. As I am fully capable of defining and asking others for more details, it is probably best that if I feel that this has been breached, that you would allow me the opportunity to express that myself.

I think the basic point to make here is that when posting on this forum we should be aware that not everyone will follow in the same house choices that we might. This is okay. There is some wriggle room here because clearly some are more experienced in horary than others, and we sometimes have a case of someone new to horary using signification choices because it may make sense to them from a modern natal astrology perspective. I don't have any real problem with someone referencing the tradition or a particular author to say "traditionally we might use the 7th cusp for this", however I do think we should imply that others are not free to disagree with us.

In this case, with 567 posts on skyscript, I think we can be safe in assuming that Gryffindor is not brand new to either traditional methods generally nor to horary. If he had only a dozen or so posts then we might infer that he is newer to horary astrology or to traditional approaches to chart interpretation genearlly - though obviously even here we can make mistakes.

Finally, however, I would like us to refocus on the horary at hand. If we feel we disagree with one another on particular points, let us try to remember to be tolerant and accepting of different views. We are all here for the same purpose, and it is not a competition. If we really feel our methods work better, then surely we should post using them and not be afraid that we cannot break from what one or another author says.

I would encourage everyone however to respect the tradition, even if disagreeing with particular points. I believe everyone here has done just that thankfully.

22
Clinton Soule wrote: First let me state in case anyone in Europe and Britain may be offended by the *term Lord or Lady* addressed to anyone as I well know in England there is quite a division between Lords and Commons, in Parliament or otherwise, and there could be some caste (jupiter)bigotry held by many.
If you are unsure of causing offence, it is perhaps always better to err on the side of caution lest offence accidentally slip out. I think it seems particularly unnecessarily, personally, to refer to anyone here as a Lord, Lady or Sir. As far as we can tell, nobody here has been knighted, nobody is recognised as a lord. Whilst we might use these terms as general honorifics, it is probably quite needless. We should assume that people post under the names they wish to be referred to. I know I would not like to be referred to as Lord Paul or Sir Paul as this is not how I see myself. It has a particular connotation, not necessarily a bad one, but one which I would not apply to myself for example.

23
Clinton Soule wrote:Gryffindor, I am understanding you may be refering to this quote by Lady Pankajdubey:

.......
Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men trully know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-rea ... ?oid=22904
Clinton, one of my posts that had the diagnosis and treatment was deleted by Paul.
So, just to clarify, I am quite happy with Mr.pankajdubey.
But, incase you want to test out my sense of humor.
I am quite ok with it- it starts with the Cromagnon period :D and easily undesrtandable.

PD

24
Hi PD

I could be wrong but I think your post is visible as the last post on the previous page,

Clinton, I am at the AFA conference in Arizona at the moment but feel I have to comment on your remarks in this thread, which I have just read for the first time. It seems a pity that the original poster, a new student, was ignored on the sidelines as you directed the focus towards minor points, some of which are quite divisive and don?t contribute towards anyone?s understanding of what horary is, how it works or what it can/cannot do.

You made a point about the need of others to be precise, but most of the incorrect assumptions were made by you, even though it is simple enough to ask clarifying questions, as Gryffindor did. Having established the relationship for the querent to the quesited was one of friendship not romance, I would consider this an 11th house matter myself (looking at the 5th for the friend?s partner), and if anyone disagreed I would have been able to offer my reason and I would have allowed them to offer their view and their reasoning too. This is not my chart or your chart, but the poster?s, and ultimately the responsibility for judging the meaning of the chart lies with the astrologer who creates the horary.

I?m not sure why you made an issue about the data when the opener gave a link where the chart can be viewed. But in quoting from the guidelines about how it is helpful to include data, you included the comment:
Above all else, remember to treat others with dignity and respect, especially when other people's view or opinions differ from your own. We want everyone to enjoy their experience on Skyscript and for it to be as pleasant as it is informative.
I see no recognition of this in your post which addresses another member and opens with the line:
No, No and Double NO!!!!
This is very disrespectful (and patronising) IMO. The forum aims to facilitate intelligent debate and discussion amongst astrologers of various levels of competency and from various backgrounds and perspectives. It is not necessary to quote Lilly, or be passionately attached to his works. Many members find references to Lilly?s work helpful, but many will not see a need to quote words from one specific author in the 17th century when it is the principle that needs exploration, not the knowledge of who said what about it.

Another remark of yours that I would like to comment on is this:
I'm sure many Modernes are hiding in the closet aboard this Forum, yet as you may understand Deb has provided that the advocates of Traditionalism will defend their stance to the letter. But the fact Deb allows the Modernes to speak out must mean she and her appointed judges whom we call Moderators, whom act in a sheriff(derived from Shires Reeve)-like manner to maintain a great horary debate environment and tolerate the Modernes oppinions provided they can take the heat in this symbolic kitchen of our horary cookbook.

So when the Ultra-Mods are ready, put it to the test!
I personally find references to ?moderns? and ?traditionalists? tiresome. We are all astrologers, and I am not going to align myself with some group, as if we are ?mods? and ?rockers? about to ride our scooters to Brighton Beach for some massive punch up. I have great respect and interest in the history and traditional principles of astrology, but please do not mistake that for a closed minded attitude (which is what presents itself in comments such as this). No one hides in closets here - this is just a forum where members choose to read or respond or not. I don?t ?allow? anyone to speak. I did not appoint Paul to be a judge, but having been very impressed by his knowledge and astute astrological insights, and his incredible patience and respectful attitude towards other members, I was extremely grateful when I was able to persuade him to act as the moderator of this forum, despite some reservations he held at the time.
Please don?t make his job any more difficult than it needs to be, by using the forum to leave implications that any member expressing any view with courtesy and sincerity must brace themselves against challenges that will be set against them.

I know you have meant well Clinton, but I would ask you to step back a little and allow other members to contribute and share their views without fear of confrontation, or unnecessary assumptions or digressions. Please remember that we are just sharing views and offering advice here, not telling each other what to do, or expecting blades to be raised in defence of a point of principle.

25
Deb wrote:Hi PD

I could be wrong but I think your post is visible as the last post on the previous page,

.....
I know you have meant well Clinton, but I would ask you to step back a little and allow other members to contribute and share their views without fear of confrontation, or unnecessary assumptions or digressions. Please remember that we are just sharing views and offering advice here, not telling each other what to do, or expecting blades to be raised in defence of a point of principle.
No Deb !
The deleted one was much worse :D
even worse than the one that remains on this page.

PD

26
Well, there is nothing I can add to what Paul has already said (see his comment below), but I feel it needs more attention, because everyone will get a better experience in the forum if we don't discourage input from astrologers who could have a great contribution to make, but might be put off from posting in a forum that smacks of arrogance and intolerance:

"Finally, however, I would like us to refocus on the horary at hand. If we feel we disagree with one another on particular points, let us try to remember to be tolerant and accepting of different views. We are all here for the same purpose, and it is not a competition. If we really feel our methods work better, then surely we should post using them and not be afraid that we cannot break from what one or another author says."

I also thought Paul raised a very pertinent point in his first post of this thread. Before worrying about the methods of judgement, is the question well considered and does the poster realise the difficulties in acting as both querent, in a matter that does not directly involve him/her, and astrologer, in a technique he/she has little experience of so far? This is very difficult - if the poster wasn't thoroughly confused at the start, they probably were by the time they'd finished reading the feedback on the hostilities of 17th century astrologers, Mel Gibson's depiction of William Wallace, the titles of lords and ladies and the class divisions of England.

27
Deb stated:
I know you have meant well Clinton, but I would ask you to step back a little and allow other members to contribute and share their views without fear of confrontation, or unnecessary assumptions or digressions. Please remember that we are just sharing views and offering advice here, not telling each other what to do, or expecting blades to be raised in defence of a point of principle.
Thank you Deb, Paul and benevolent Forum, the last thing I wished to do was alienate any horary artist. And it's true with my natal 3rd house I love 'symbolicly fencing', crossing swords, and do often come across a little coarse from time to time, and I love a great debate where we cultivate a great horary crop, where the discussion is there for future posterity of horary.

Pankajdubey, I am terribly sorry if I misread your gender by the handle, or name you chose for the Forum. (symbolically bowing to you)

Gryffindor said:
I see a Modern gun pointed by you at my saintly head lest it damage the golden halo, I assure you that I am as ultra-traditional as Lilly was in his times The Book written by John Gadbury has been locked in a closet and I am ready to take an oath of celibacy and traditionalism on 'The Horary Text Book' by John Frawley.
Gryffinder, please except my apology, I have Not read all your posts, as astro brother Paul stated. Your replies via this thread disoreinted me some, having Not read many of your prior posts via other threads. Yet I too like the deceased Traditionalist that I mentioned have some concepts that Do Not agree with pre-1700 texts, but I'm saving this for a long time to come.

julz87 said:
Thats also IF they are ever going to end. I am new to horary so I am still learning as to how to read when i am asking about someone else. T is the guy and R is the girl.

Which house would I look to, for this type of question? (I am asking about T the guy)
Should I look at the 5th or the 7th house? What applying aspects should I be looking for when asking about someone else?

Link to the chart. http://i.imgur.com/fWhA7a6.gif?1
Julz87, the reasoning I had mentioned the adjustment of adding 15 or subtracting 15 degrees longitude and keeping the same lattitude is that others may want to re-calculate the horoscope. One could add 30, 45, or 60 degrees or subtract arriving at the same horoscope in a different vicinity to hide their whereabouts, a little sco, pisces or 8th or 12H.

Astro.com, from that page also lists the ephemeris you can download and from the horoscope page you posted there is an 'Additional Tables' icon where one may view the speeds of the planets. These features are helpful to progress or regress a horary.

So Julz87, please tell us more so others may aid you in your horary!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know