cor scorpii wrote:Johannes, Clinton, please give me a quote of Cancer rulerships from Lilly which would be equivalent to the rulerships of the 4th house and the Moon.

Thank you

Goran, if this quote from above

"The Fourth House.

Of Colours, the Red: It?s Cosignificator is Cancer, [...]

to be read now for the third time, does not answer your question, then sorry, I can't help it.

Johannes

I'm off now, but tomorrow I should like to give a quotation concerning the possibiltiy of applications to or separations from antiscia in the teachings of Lilly, an example.

Johannes

johannes susato wrote:

cor scorpii wrote:Johannes, Clinton, please give me a quote of Cancer rulerships from Lilly which would be equivalent to the rulerships of the 4th house and the Moon.

Thank you

Goran, if this quote from above

"The Fourth House.

Of Colours, the Red: It?s Cosignificator is Cancer, [...]

to be read now for the third time, does not answer your question, then sorry, I can't help it.

Johannes

Sorry Johannes, but to say a particular sign is a co-significator of a certain house does not mean it has the same rulerships as that house - not even if you state it a thousand times, because it's simply nonexistent in CA or any other traditional book

That's why I asked you to provide Lilly's quotes concerning the rulerships of the sign Cancer and the planet Moon, to be compared to the rulerships of the 4th house.

Anyone really familiar with this material should know instantly what I'm talking about. Your obvious reluctance to provide evidence/quotes in support of your claims speaks for itself, I'm afraid

If you read any authority very carefully(Lilly including,of course!), all this should be pretty obvious/self - evident; after all, that's why the houses, signs and planets are treated separately, aren't they?


Goran

Sir Goran and Benevolent Forum devotees,

We may be going off on another great thread, as this may become a worthy thread for one of skyscript's sibling Forums!

But many times reading a document, or documents related to the subject, like pre-1700 documents on horary, we sometimes have to *read between the lines*.

And we know we can get out of the spiritual pursuit of our endeavor, and all can be quite guilty of getting lost in our egos, what we know, what we have done, etc. But this horary science isn't truly about us, it is about finding the truth.

And presently Luna is in the sign of truth of Aqu, so let's pursue truth.

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

CA I, page 81, under "QUALITIES OF MEN AND WOMEN":

...Midwives, Nurses...

Why does Lilly list these females in occupation under the fourth? Could it have to do with nursing? The Breasts? No Luna correlation there?

CA I, page 82, "SICKNESS":

...Fluxes of Belly, ......, cold Stomack

Nothing related to the cancer stomach here ruled by the Moon?

Under "FISHES":

...fish, the Crab and Lobster...

I sware, there is nothing relating to the sign Cancer there in that fragmented quote, I mean I shouldn't read between the lines as there is No Luna correlation?

Under "MINERALS":

...Silver...

No one in astrology ever noted that with the aspects to the Moon one can predict when the ore silver will rise and fall, and the same with Gold, ruled by Sol, aspects detirmine the ups and downs on it's value in the daily markets!

***But Goran what could Lilly be telling us here?***

CAI, Page 79, under "HOUSE":

She hath the Sign Cancer for her house,

Cancer for her house, who is 'Her', her sure sounds female? Is Her Anthordite(Venus)? Is Her Diana(Luna)?

Page 95, "QUALITY AND PROPERTY OF CANCER"

Cancer is the onely house of the Moon, and is the first Sign of the Watry or Northern Triplicity, is Watry, Cold, Moyst, Flegmatick, Feminine, Nocturnal, Moveable, a Solstice Sign mute and slow of Voyce, Fruitful, Northern

Onely house of the Moon?

***Goran and beloved Forum Members did you see reference to a certain word twice in the above quote from Lilly?***

Did you see the word *Northern* twice mentioned? As Cancer when looking at a horoscope in the 'Natural' is Not south but North, the IC, Not Medium Coeli, which is South.

So if we read between the lines, and are looking for lost objects or something missing do we disregard the house, the *Fourth* as North!

Lilly told us there Sir Knight Goran of our forum, that the fourth correlates to the Crab, ruled by Luna!

Just as the 8th relates, or corresponds to Scorpio, Mars(Devil), as it rules the genitals, and since the 8th is the house of Death and the physical house of sexuality(penetration)!

CAI, page 97, under "DISEASES":

Gravell, the Stone in the Secret parts, Bladder, Ruptures, Fistulaes, or the Pyles in Ano, Gonorrhea?s, Priapisaics, all aflicting the Privy parts either in Man or Woman; defects in the Matrix.

Lilly Never to my knowlege addresses Reincarnation in CA, but some astrologers know 'everything born of sex has to die, and the human waste products correspond to re-incarnation', a subject Lilly may have been scorpio secret on as the Roman Catholic, Angligian Church, Lutherans, and orthodox Christians may not have relished his wisdom upon such insights!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Clinton,

I really feel the need to thank you for trying to prove my point so hard - excellent job!

Goran

Goran you are missing what Lilly said about Cancer being North!

Finding Lost Objects, the house correlation...the Direction!

Of course there are ostriches that put their head in the sand!

Clinton Soule wrote:Goran you are missing what Lilly said about Cancer being North!

Finding Lost Objects, the house correlation...the Direction!

Of course there are ostriches that put their head in the sand!

Speaking of "ostriches" and "missing something" ...ever heard about Dr. Benjamin Dykes?
You know, it's been said the man knows a thing or two about astrology and translating ancient texts

Let's see if he can help you out a bit in this... "sandy confusion" of yours (and Johannes')

Before talking about some special features of traditional houses, let me point out two important differences between some modern approaches and the traditional one.

First, there is no "alphabet" or one-to-one correspondence between houses, signs,and planetary lords. Houses, signs, and planets are distinct. That is to say, the first house does not have the nature of Aries and Mars. The second house does not have the nature of Taurus and Venus.Nor does the fact that Capricorn or Saturn is in some house have anything to do with 10th house matters - unless Capricorn or Saturn happen to be in the 10th house itself, or Saturn actually rules the 10th.

Such overlaps are only apparent, and using them will lead to confusion when you interpret a chart. Offhand, I can think of only a couple of instances where traditional astrologers apply these ideas but they seem to be idiosyncratic and forced - and in one instance, the attempt to draw out those similarities gets dropped after a few examples because the comparison doesn't really work. (Traditional Astrology for Today, p. 53)



If it still isn't clear/obvious by now, I'll be happy to provide you with some other quotes which point in the same direction. Lilly is no exception,of course, if you finally choose to read what he actually wrote and stop cherry-picking small bits which seemingly support your claims, totally ignoring bulk of evidence so clearly undermining the position you've taken.

Goran

I largely agree with Cor Scorpii on this.

I would say that there is an overlap in certain signification with regards a sign and a house, and this chiefly pertains to the idea of location - whether that location is direction such as north, or whether the location is of the body such as with medical/bodily/anatomical matters.

However there is less (or indeed no) traditional correlation of houses and planets which would conclude that the Moon has the fourth as its 'natural house'.

If this is incorrect it would be much simpler for Clinton or someone else to simply provide the reference where any traditional astrologer describes the fourth as the natural house of the Moon.

Lilly says instead that the fourth is co-signified by Cancer, this is not the same. In fact these quotes provided here in favour of trying to assert some natural house rulership of the Moon to the fourth house seems, to me, to be largely intellectually dishonest as it is only by omission that this implication might be seen. Let's look at what Lilly says of the fourth house and we will see that it shares much more symbolism with Saturn than with the Moon.

"Giveth judgement of fathers in general and ever of his father that enquires, or that is born; of lands, houses, tenements, inheritances, tillage of the earth, treasures hidden, the determination or end of anything; towns, cities or castles, besieged or not besieged; all ancient dwellings, gardens, fields, pastures, orchards; the quality and nature of the.....

.....grounds one purchaseth, whether vineyards, cornfield, &c., whether the ground be woody, stony or barren.
The sign of the fourth denoteth the town, the lord thereof, the governor. It ruleth the breast, lungs.
Of colours, the red: Its cosignificator is Cancer, and of planets the Sun; we call it the Angle of the Earth, or Immum Coeli; it is feminine, and the North Angle: In Nativities or Questions, this fourth house represents fathers, so doth the Sun by day and Saturn by night; yet if the Sun be herein placed, he is not ill, but rather shows the father to be of a noble disposition"

Taken from here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html#4

So Johannes quote above seems a bit suspect as it deliberately removes the concluding part of the quote, namely not just is its cosignificator Cancer, but also the Sun. By omitting this we might imply that there is some connection with the Moon and the fourth, but we see clearly here that there is not. In fact Saturn and the Sun are mentioned explicitly as being connected here.

The Moon is mentioned nowhere and there is plenty of opportunity for it to have been, especially as other planets have been.

The idea of the astrological alphabet is indeed a modern concept as Cor Scorpii suggests. But as I say it would be much better to simply provide a full quote where any traditional astrologer disagrees with what Goran (and myself) are stating here. Clinton could you provide a quote which shows an author actually describing the fourth as the natural house of the Moon? What you have done thusfar is to be highly selective in quoting individual words or parts of sentences as if to imply that these significations relate to the Moon and conclude that therefore there is a connection with the Moon and the house, but in doing so you have needed to omit those instances where the signification is more clearly befitting Saturn or another planet, and confusing that having an overlap in certain signification between signs and houses implies one between the sign ruler and those houses.


Similarly then if we look to the tenth we see that the Mother is connected with the tenth. This is surely utterly in disagreement that the Moon which naturally symoblises the Mother might have its natural house in the fourth. I think taking tiny snippets of quotes may try to appear to support a view, but it is only because the larger portion of the quote clearly contradicts the idea.

Page 95, "QUALITY AND PROPERTY OF CANCER" Quote:
Cancer is the onely house of the Moon, and is the first Sign of the Watry or Northern Triplicity, is Watry, Cold, Moyst, Flegmatick, Feminine, Nocturnal, Moveable, a Solstice Sign mute and slow of Voyce, Fruitful, Northern

Goran, Paul, and Forum, imagine how difficult it was for centurys when astrologers reading CA and other pre-1700 books on horary and they came to the wrong conclusions.

What I am getting at is Lilly says Cancer is North, and when finding lost or missing objects we utilize the 4th, like buried treasure, mining, etc., if I understand Lilly correctly.

If we are looking for a lost item what direction is represented by the 4th house if it is related to the query?

Or is using house directions a Moderne false conclusion in order to locate an object?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Paul pointed out from CA:

"Giveth judgement of fathers in general and ever of his father that enquires, or that is born; of lands, houses, tenements, inheritances, tillage of the earth, treasures hidden, the determination or end of anything; towns, cities or castles, besieged or not besieged; all ancient dwellings, gardens, fields, pastures, orchards; the quality and nature of the.....

.....grounds one purchaseth, whether vineyards, cornfield, &c., whether the ground be woody, stony or barren. The sign of the fourth denoteth the town, the lord thereof, the governor. It ruleth the breast, lungs.
Of colours, the red: Its cosignificator is Cancer, and of planets the Sun; we call it the Angle of the Earth, or Immum Coeli; it is feminine, and the North Angle: In Nativities or Questions, this fourth house represents fathers, so doth the Sun by day and Saturn by night; yet if the Sun be herein placed, he is not ill, but rather shows the father to be of a noble disposition"

Taken from here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html#4 "Giveth judgement of fathers in general and ever of his father that enquires, or that is born; of lands, houses, tenements, inheritances, tillage of the earth, treasures hidden, the determination or end of anything; towns, cities or castles, besieged or not besieged; all ancient dwellings, gardens, fields, pastures, orchards; the quality and nature of the.....

.....grounds one purchaseth, whether vineyards, cornfield, &c., whether the ground be woody, stony or barren.
The sign of the fourth denoteth the town, the lord thereof, the governor. It ruleth the breast, lungs.
Of colours, the red: Its cosignificator is Cancer, and of planets the Sun; we call it the Angle of the Earth, or Immum Coeli; it is feminine, and the North Angle: In Nativities or Questions, this fourth house represents fathers, so doth the Sun by day and Saturn by night; yet if the Sun be herein placed, he is not ill, but rather shows the father to be of a noble disposition"

Taken from here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html#4

Exhibit A:

...of lands, houses, tenements...

No one can see that 'houses' is ruled by Luna!

Exhibit B:

...ruleth the breast...

What planet rules the Breast, or bosum?

Exhibit C:

...Of colours, the red: Its cosignificator is Cancer...

Lilly being a Pisces Rising is a little confusing at times for like many world religions, when the icon is gone people get a distorted view of what he meant; the movement tends to get distorted!

Co-significator is Cancer, strange he must have made a mistake and meant Capricorn, Saturn ruled you know!

Exhibit D:

it is feminine, and the North Angle:

Very strange that Lilly says 'Cancer the sign is North' and that Lilly says of the 4th house 'it is North'.

Well we know that Lilly as a Sol in Taurus is very logical he would never, ever contradict himself, so he must have made a mistake as he was writting much of CA while sick. If Cancer is North why Is Lilly stating the 4th is North as well?

I mean is Lilly not logical, or why does the direction of North fit both Cancer and the Fourth house descriptions of CA?

Shouldn't it be reversed if Cancer has no correlation, no corespondence with the fourth?

As far as Father, both the sign and house relate to parentage do they not?

The 10th or Capricorn relate to Career, social status, standing in the community. But Cancer and the fourth are defintely home related from both fourth house and Cancer desriptions that I see by Lilly's words.

Other Forum members see this and believe it as well, they just may Not have the horoscope as I do to bring it out, and stand on it!

Clinton Garrett Soule

And you ought to know I love each and everyone of you as astro siblings regardless of our various oppinions!

Clinton Soule wrote:

Page 95, "QUALITY AND PROPERTY OF CANCER" Quote:
Cancer is the onely house of the Moon, and is the first Sign of the Watry or Northern Triplicity, is Watry, Cold, Moyst, Flegmatick, Feminine, Nocturnal, Moveable, a Solstice Sign mute and slow of Voyce, Fruitful, Northern

Goran, Paul, and Forum, imagine how difficult it was for centurys when astrologers reading CA and other pre-1700 books on horary and they came to the wrong conclusions.

What I am getting at is Lilly says Cancer is North, and when finding lost or missing objects we utilize the 4th, like buried treasure, mining, etc., if I understand Lilly correctly.

If we are looking for a lost item what direction is represented by the 4th house if it is related to the query?

Or is using house directions a Moderne false conclusion in order to locate an object?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Why exactly would these astrologers come to wrong conclusions, I don't get your point?

Lilly(true to his predecessors) says the whole watery triplicity is northern, not just Cancer.

In Abu Ma'shar's Introduction to Astrology I haven't found any reference to directions ascribed to particular houses, but the four directions are ascribed to the four quadrants - eastern quadrant is from the ascending to the MC degree, southern is from the Mid - heaven to the descending degree; western reaches from the descendant to the IC, while the northern quadrant stretches from the IC to the ascendant.

As always, when analyzing any kind of chart, we pronounce judgment by the majority of testimonies - as Lilly so often recommends/admonishes.

I remember clearly that in one of his delineations I've recently read, he says to prefer sign before quarter when trying to discover relevant position/direction!

The 10th or Capricorn relate to Career, social status, standing in the community. But Cancer and the fourth are defintely home related from both fourth house and Cancer desriptions that I see by Lilly's words.

Other Forum members see this and believe it as well, they just may Not have the horoscope as I do to bring it out, and stand on it!

No, Clinton(how can you know what others believe???) because the point of view you're trying to defend so desperately is grounded upon your stubbornness and nothing else...it is the beginner knowledge one gains right at the start when learning trad. astrology, not something one argues over despite all the plain/overwhelming evidence to the contrary - even in the source you constantly quote to support your position! So you can "stand on it" all you want, that doesn't make your opinion right - on the contrary...you only make yourself pretty ridiculous - sorry!

And once more - no, Capricorn does not have anything to do with career/social status/standing in the community unless it is actually on the cusp of the 10th or hosts the ruler of the 10th.

Doesn't the quote of B. Dykes tell you something very important is missing in your puzzle? Or you just didn't read it because you don't like it?
A head in the sand...?

BTW, why are you leaving Saturn out of the picture now - you've argued previously for the Moon=Cancer=4th? So why not also Saturn=Capricorn=10th?

And again - a sign is a co-significator of a house only in medical/anatomical sense because Aries represents the head just as the first house does, Taurus rules the throat just as the 2nd does, etc - their rulerships tend to overlap for the most part.

Or can you offer clear evidence this isn't so?

Goran

Clinton Soule wrote: Or is using house directions a Moderne false conclusion in order to locate an object?

As I thought my last post clearly demonstrated, the problem isn't in recognising that locations relate signs to houses, but in think that planets relate to houses as per their sign ruler.

Does Moon rule north?

If not then your point here isn't addressing what is being discussed, but instead recognition of signs being co-rulers for the houses, and that when it comes to location, be it medical or direction, that there is overlap in symbolism. This overlap does not stretch to the planets. Rather than repeat the same arguments you have, why not simply find the quote from the tradition which demonstrates that the planets have 'natural houses' as you suggested.

You will not be able to because as Goran points out this is a modern phenomenon.

EXHIBIT A...EXHIBT B...EXHIBIT C...

I think I already pointed out the pitfalls of being so selective in your quotes, once again we have Cancer included and, for example, Sun and Saturn being explicitly linked to the house being utterly ignored.

Co-significator is Cancer, strange he must have made a mistake and meant Capricorn, Saturn ruled you know!

Straw man arguments hardly make for conclusive points. It is your logic which attests that planets link to houses, not mine. Therefore equating capricorn with the fourth because of Saturn would only make sense from the logic you're using (which I'm contradicting) - in fact what you've done here is actually argue my own point for me. I do not know if you realise this.

The remainder of your post follows similar thinking and adopts straw men arguments of "how strange it is" that Lilly linked signs and houses, and yet nowhere have you quoted any planet-house link. I encourage you to re-read my post, you will see I acknowledge that there is overlap in some areas with the symbolism of the SIGN with the house, just not the planet. Why you are then demonstrating the sign and the house is beyond me as I've already acknowledged it. Repeatedly mentioning that north is signified by both cancer and the fourth tells us absolutely nothing about the Moon sharing signification with the fourth, or, more importantly that it has a natural home.

The solution is much simpler: present a quote from a traditional source stating that planets have natural homes and that these homes are seen by the domicile ruler of the sign of the same number.