Hello, everyone :

As soon as I erected this chart, I noticed the early ascendant warning against the judgment. It has been almost two months after the chart was erected, so I have known the outcome. Every time I come back and read the chart again to see what I did wrong on the first reading. I also try to further interpret the chart just for practice even if the chart is not radical. A lot of times I have found that it is more difficult to interpret a chart when there is a stricture.

For this particular chart, I must use house rulers, almuten and the planets inside the house for the significators. I am just wondering what planet you would choose for the significator of querent (1st house), quesited (5th house), querent?s husband (7th house) and husband?s children (11th house, 7th?s 5th house). Besides the chart, I have also posted the additional tables of this chart just in case.

I truly appreciate if anyone could take some time to review the chart. I look forward to hearing all kinds of suggestions and opinion. Thank you very much!

Hi MindyChou

Welcome to the forum!

I had to remove the image with the table data, purely because it was excessively big and distorting the layout of the forum.

For the significator of the querent I'd probably use Mercury but I'd be tempted by Jupiter so close to the ascendant here.

I look forward to reading what your interpretation was and what the result was. There's some mixed testimony in the chart but I'd marginally lean toward that you were pregnant.

Paul stated:

For the significator of the querent I'd probably use Mercury but I'd be tempted by Jupiter so close to the ascendant here.

I truly hate it when Lilly says "...Co-Lord...", as many through the centurys may have taken that term 'Co-Lord' as emphasizing *Equal Ruler*; but then that is the term Lilly chose to utilize and it continues today throughout astro lore! Wish he had said *assistent ruler*.

It's like when I was so young and did Not believe in the Holy art and science of astrology, I'd read where certain signs were 'negative' or gender oreinted, like 'masculine and feminine' and associate negative with down graded negativity, rather than understanding the term negative meant pulling in like a magnetic pull.

I know it's often done using a planet posited in the first house, as called co-ruler or co-lord, but Paul could you cite a traditional source of where this is done?

And I know there are those Ultra-Trads, whom the Outers Do Not exist in any form or area in astrology, who the hair stands up on their neck when his name and work is mentioned. But as I understand unless it was the prior Moderator, that you study John Frawley devotedly as do many on this Forum, is there a Frawley citation that one may be aware of that one might post this method?

Mindy Chow, I see you used Koch, possibly because you may have studied Anthony Louis as he does use Koch, yet many here use Regiomontanus because Lilly did, the icon of Traditionalism.

MindyChow, I'm Not wishing to create a scenario of 'us verses them', of 'Traditionalist verses Moderns', but it was Barbara Watters who led the campaign of persuading so many that the early rising was a stricture whereby one avoided doing the horary as it was unreadable, the Stricture of Judgment. However Lilly does include several early rising horarys in CAII, yet No late asc. horarys.

Unless you were actually testing the artist, as Guildo Bonatus would say!

For the easy access of my astro brethren, here is the chart that is of size 75%. If one Does Not enlarge the map or recalculate a horoscope from this web page, it tends to stay there indefinitely:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lan ... 1364587736

*The reason I'm including this website of the horoscope, is because one may click upon 'addtitional tables(PDF)', open up the ephemeris page of any year, or email the map to an email.*

MindyChou, generally as Mercury(5th lord) is recieving No Ptolemaic aspects it would be considered a 'No answer'. However Lilly did state 'that if a planet is aspecting a planet within orb yet in another sign it would manifest'. Thus a 'Yes Answer"!

However on Angelicus Merlin Forum, owned and moderated by the adept and dedicated Dorothy J. Kovach, this has been heavily argued against. As if Lilly was wrong on this method or technique that he taught in CA.

I asked a question years ago about a 7th house love matter, of a woman I wanted to be with, and have been in many incarnations past, and using this method of Lilly it was a Yes. However, years latter we still talk as friends, but we both know in this incarnation we are symbolicly 'incarcerated from each other'.

So I am going to say No, that Lilly's method is off on this, that Mercury(Hermes) can not cjt. Mars(Devil), even if in orb and moiety according to Lilly.

Of course the first aspect to the lord of the matter is generally the indicator probly about 85% of the time, but terms, face, etc., are other testimonys that must be weighed, which I haven't looked at so far!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Hello, Hello,

I was so excited when the reply came in. Thank you very much!

Paul, when I was previewing my post before I submitted it, I was also wondering if I needed to adjust the size of the picture because it looked so big. Sorry~ I will make it smaller next time.

At the first view of this pregnancy chart, the thought flashing into my mind besides the early ascendant was that querent and quesited are both signified by the same planet Mercury, does that mean the baby and I have become one, another word, I am pregnant???

The Ascendant Ruler is Mercury and the Almuten of 1st house is also Mercury. The 5th house Ruler and Almuten are also Mercury and there is no other planet inside the 5th house. I must use Jupiter for the querent and Mercury for the matter. Yes, I leaned toward that this was a ?yes? answer because the benefic natural significator of children Jupiter is close to ascendant in the 1st house, Mercury is in the angular 10th house, and Mercury is applying to the square of Jupiter with reception-Mercury receives Jupiter by rulership. My immediate next concern was what the ?square? indicated. Because I was asking ?Am I pregnant?? not ?Am I going to be pregnant??, if I were pregnant at this moment, what difficulties, problems or delay would the ?square? give it to me?

Anyhow, after I further read the chart, more negative testimonies were coming up. The Lord of 5th Mercury is peregrine under sunbeams and in an applying conjunction with the malefic Mars. The significator of querent Jupiter is in detriment, which is weak. In addition, the natural significator of fertility Venus is under sunbeams in the cadent 9th house and applying to the greatest malefic Saturn by square. (Sigh~my poor Mercury and Venus are dying of thirst, hahaha)

On the other hand, Moon just left Mercury from square in Scorpio. It did indicate that I have been working hard to have a baby, but I was not pregnant at the time. The moon just entered into Sagittarius on the very early degree and is going to sextile Venus, opposite Jupiter and sextile Sun in Sagittarius. These aspects show that it is possible for me to be pregnant in the near future, but I need to keep working hard. Also, since the moon will sextile Mercury when it enters another sign of Capricorn, there may be a change in some circumstances in order for the pregnancy to take place in a period of time.

The result: Three days after the chart was erected, I found that I was NOT pregnant. Now I am not pregnant, either.

I believe that all the phenomena appeared on the chart are expressing certain meanings to us. This is the mutual floating energy from the universe that I never ignore them. If there were any strictures when I opened a chart, it was telling me that there should be something else more important to be considered than the result of the chart. I would still read the chart, but the interpretation of the chart would not be the priority of my concern. Instead, I would think the nature and background of the question: Why does the energy want to warn me? What are they warning me about? In fact, before further reading this pregnancy chart, the early ascendant has given me a negative feeling. Precisely I should say ?not yet? feeling. My ?not yet? feeling does not only mean ?I am not pregnant yet?, but it also might be the warning of ?don?t get pregnant yet!?

Clinton, thank you for mentioning ?Lily did state that if a planet is aspecting a planet within orb yet in another sign it would manifest'. Thus a 'Yes Answer!? I have not paid too much attention to this probably because a lot of times other testimonies have more weight leading to an answer and I overlook it. Just like the pregnancy chart, even if the conjunction between Mercury and Mars is not effective because they are in different signs, there are enough other testimonies to give a ?no? answer. I will pay attention to this and study it from now on, though.

Clinton, you are absolutely right! After I read Anthony Louis?s book, I started to use Koch. As you said, many use Regiomontanus because Lilly did; the icon of Traditionalism. From now on, I will use Regiomontanus because that is the icon of Traditionalism. I like that. ^^

Thank you very much for taking the time to review my post and reply with such good insight and information. Please feel free to give me any feedback or recommendations when you have time.

Happy Easter!

MindyChou wrote: The Ascendant Ruler is Mercury and the Almuten of 1st house is also Mercury. The 5th house Ruler and Almuten are also Mercury and there is no other planet inside the 5th house. I must use Jupiter for the querent and Mercury for the matter.

Traditional sources give the ascendant, its ruler, and the moon to the querent. Is there a problem in using the moon for the querent here?

Yes, Jupiter is in the first house, but I would note that Jupiter is also ruler of the 8th house, and with that in mind....

Why does the energy want to warn me? What are they warning me about?

Mercury is conjunct Mars. Yes, it is across a change of sign, and that can be argued about, but Mars rules Scorpio which is intercepted in the 6th house. Where a sign is intercepted (wholly enclosed within a house) its ruler can be considered a co-ruler (sorry Clinton) of that house. Moreover, Mercury is disposed by Saturn which is also in Scorpio, in the 6th house. Scorpio rules the reproductive organs. Saturn could be a 'blockage'...?

Might be worth a visit to a doctor.

Not mentioned so far, but generally something looked for in questions concerning pregnancy, is if the significators are in 'fruitful' signs, that is Cancer, Scorpio or Pisces. Significators in 'barren' signs, that is Gemini, Leo or Virgo are considered unhelpful. Note that Gemini rises.

Geoffrey

A very nasty Mars is the one to watch for/blame in this case, I think

As the ruler of the 6th, he's angular and out of sect afflicting both the ruler of the ascendant and the Moon without reception - the aspect with the latter is still partile, though also separating.

Mars also closely aspects the ascending degree as well as Jupiter, the natural ruler of children in the first by a hostile, dominating square.

So in hindsight, too much influence of both naturally/accidentally very malefic Mars for a "yes"answer to a pregnancy question.

Goran

Thanks for the Regiomontanus chart, Clinton!

For me it is most interesting, to try to follow the teachings of one of the central references in horary: William Lilly.

So Lilly, CA, p. 226:

"Whether she is with Childe or not.

A Woman mistrusting her selfe to be with Childe, and desi-
rous to know the truth; if she aske the Question of thee, then
give Answer, having well considered your Figure, erected ac-
cording to the time of her demand, viz. as these following rules
direct you.

If the Lord of the ascendant or MO behold the Lord of the fifth
with any aspect or translation."
(-), as Mercury, Lord of the 1st and 5th is needed as significator of the child or the pregnancy, the Moon is taken for the querent, and she is neither in an applying aspect to Mercury nor translating light to him.

"If the Lord of the ascendant and the MO be in the fifth house
free from the malevolent aspect of the Infortunes and direct; and
herein you must not wholly rely upon SA and MA or the KNKN to be
the onely Unfortunate Planets, * you must consider the position

227
of heaven at time of erecting your Scheame, and take any evill
aspect of the Lord of the sixth, eighth or twelfth, be he what
Planet he will, to be an affliction, if he have 90? or 180? to the Lord
of the fifth, or Lord of the ascendant, or the MO."
(-) Not even the first condition is given, Mercury and the Moon not being in the 5th. But the rest of the text is helpful to judge Jupiter not simply as benefic (see below).

"Jupiter generally in the first, fifth, eleventh or seventh, not in as-
pect to SA or MA, they being slow in motion or Retrograde."
(+/-) Jupiter is in the first, but being in detriment and only his face preventing him to be peregrine into the bargain make him not to look like the great benefic. And in my opinion he should be at least in a more proper condition than this to fulfill this condition. If not, Mars in applying square would hinder him, a he seems to be in fast motion (above 40 minutes per day).

"The Lord of the ascendant, or Lord of the fifth house aspect-
ing a Planet in an Angle with reception, and rendring up his
vertue unto him; if the MO be in reception with any Planet in
an Angle, that is, essentially Fortified, else not; for accidentall
dignities in this manner of judgement, giveth hopes, but not
reall assurance."
(-) This condition is a bit problematic according to the question whether the reception has to be mutual. But how could the Moon be essentially fortified by an opposition without mutual reception? And just this is wanting here.

"If the Lord of the Ascendant behold the Ascendant with an
amicable aspect, out of any good House;"
(-) for the Moon's opposition to the ascendant is a hostile aspect.

"or if the MO be in the seventh, and behold the Lord of the seventh in the eleventh, or if the MO be in the eleventh, and behold the Lord of the seventh in the seventh."
(-) neither is the lord of the 7th (Jupiter) in the 11th, nor is the Moon in the 11th.

"The Lord of the Ascendant received in either House, Triplici-
ty or Exaltation, and the receiver of the Lord of the Ascendant
having alike dignity in the House, Triplicity, Exaltation, or Term
of the received, viz. Lord of the Ascendant."
(-) This condition seems to be a bit complicated paraphrase of mutual reception which is not given here.

"The Moon giving vertue, or rendring her light to a Planet in
the fifth house, or having essentiall dignities in the fifth."
(-) No planet in the 5th, and the face of the Moon in the second sign of the house seems a lot too weak and probably there should be more than one dignity (see above: "dignities").

"The Moon applying to the Lord of the ascendant or Lord of the
fifth in the first or tenth House, [...]"
(-) The Moon applies neither to Mercury nor is one of theses planets in the first or tenth house.

"The Dispositor of the MO and Lord of the houre in Angles;"
(+/-) Jupiter is in the ascendant but which planet ruled the hour?

"Mars in the Signe of the seventh House, she is newly conceived
(this is to be understood if he be well Fortified:)"
(-)

"Saturn in the seventh, the party is quicke, or her Infant moveth:"
(-)

"Jupiter ind the seventh, she is impregnated of a male childe:"
(-)

"Sagittarius or Pisces in the

228
seventh, she is with childe of a Girle; this must be understood
when all the rest of the Significators are equall, and ballance
not the judgement, then if you finde Sagittarius or Pisces in the seventh,
you may judge the party shall have a Girle."
(-) Event though Sagittarius is in the 7th, the rest of the Signifcators cannot be called "equall" because they are negative.

"Besides, the Moon in the fifth applying to JU or VE argue the same."
(-) Moon is in the seventh.

"You may ever predict true Conception, if the Signe ascending be fixed, and a Fortune therein placed, or the Lord of the fift strong in the as-
cendant or tenth House."
(-) Sign ascending is common, not fixed; Mercury, lord of the 5th, is in the 10th, but peregrine it cannot be called strong.

Even though we are in a hindsight state now, it is satisfactory to see us assured of the outcome also astrologically by the rules of Lilly.

Johannes

"The Moon giving vertue, or rendring her light to a Planet in
the fifth house, or having essentiall dignities in the fifth."
(-) No planet in the 5th, and the face of the Moon in the second sign of the house seems a lot too weak and probably there should be more than one dignity (see above: "dignities").

I don't think that "dignities" refers to those pertaining to the Moon in the 5th(in this case its face in Libra), but to the planet which has dignities there, being applied to by the Moon.

Goran

Johannes pointed out from Lilly in CAII:

"The Lord of the Ascendant received in either House, Triplici-
ty or Exaltation, and the receiver of the Lord of the Ascendant
having alike dignity in the House, Triplicity, Exaltation, or Term
of the received, viz. Lord of the Ascendant."
(-) This condition seems to be a bit complicated paraphrase of mutual reception which is not given here.

Now this one like yourself Johannes, I have trouble with as *If* Lilly's method of a 'perfecting aspect yet the planet applied to is in another sign yet within orb or connecting moiety according to Al Buruni '. For in reading Lilly where he states phrases like "accidently debilitated", it sounds like Mars is in what modernes call 'accidental exaltation'.

Is Lilly telling us from this horary that Mars is being cjt by Mercury though Hermes has to change sign to perfect this cjt and that Mars is' accidently exalted' or is this where many Modernes misunderstood Lilly and created this *accidental* Neptunian confusion(sorry Ultra Trads, and No I'm not using Outers as rulers of a cusp in horary yet natal, transits, progressions and directions I have to deviate from pre-1700 sacred writings)?

MindyChou and Forum, I'm not saying at all that Lilly's method of the planets can perfect if within orb is totally wrong even if the Angelicus Merlin Forum discussion on this issue held the belief that Lilly was in error and that my one horary proved similar.

To be statistically accurate one would have to weigh many horary artists horary charts, several artist's lifetime's of work to verify statistically what is valid.

Johannes sets a standard as Lilly stated about being credible, not in error, for the sake of our science and art as well as our own reputations. Talking with many from India in my area, it's said that before the influence of the West started moving so rapidly upon India, almost every family had an astrologer just as in North America and Europe most families have a favorite automobile mechanic. People from India tell of a few Charlatons who fraud their work, yet many are mere young astrologers still studying and trying to prove themselves.

I would think that with the wisdom of the Ancient Maya calendar, of which December 25th, 2012 has received so much emphasis recently, that we have actually arrived at 29 degrees 59 minutes and 50 plus seconds into the Age of Aquarius and isn't it time we accept the Saturnine responsibility of being the best artists we can be and professionally usher in the Age?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

I wonder if anyone has considered looking at this chart from a whole sign perspectve? There are times when the house cusps fall within the same number sign used to show a topic, but other times, not. This is one of those times as the 5th cusp is falling in a different numbered sign. If venus were to be used as the 5th whole sign than it would point to a no.

As for planets in the 1st house being co-rulers, I realize that Lilly used this as a method, but it never worked well for me personally. These are just my experiences though. Usually I find planets in the 1st house indicating thoughts weighing down on the querent, as shown by the house ruled. Jupiter is very close to the cusp of the ascendant, and rules the 7th house, while the moon is very close to the cusp of the 7th. It does take two for matters such as these.

EDIT: Personally I have found the primary triplicity ruler, to be more accurate as a sub ruler of a house if needed.

Tyler wrote:[...] If venus were to be used as the 5th whole sign than it would point to a no.

As for planets in the 1st house being co-rulers, I realize that Lilly used this as a method but it never worked well for me personally.

With Regiomontanus and Mercury ruling the 5th house there is also a No to the queston.

Where did you ever find Lilly using planets in houses as co-significators, please?

Johannes

cor scorpii wrote:

"The Moon giving vertue, or rendring her light to a Planet in
the fifth house, or having essentiall dignities in the fifth."
(-) No planet in the 5th, and the face of the Moon in the second sign of the house seems a lot too weak and probably there should be more than one dignity (see above: "dignities").

I don't think that "dignities" refers to those pertaining to the Moon in the 5th(in this case its face in Libra), but to the planet which has dignities there, being applied to by the Moon.

Goran

You are most probably right - thanks for mention it!
But what does it mean exactly: "the Moon giving vertue, or rendring her light to a Planet"?

Johannes