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Void of Course, when is it actually VOC?
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there is nothing ahead within its reach to apply to!
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
But there is nothing ahead within its reach to apply to!

But surely, PD! It is the state of the Moon to be void of course!

In the length of our discussion you might presumably have clipped some of the following arguments and their support by Ibn Ezra and Lilly?

johannes susato wrote:

Why should the application to a certain state, i.e. the state of being void of course = not separating from another planet and not applying to another planet, be a misnomer?
Wording "Applying to no application" you forgot one half of the definition of void of course.

johannes susato wrote:
And what should be wrong or what be problematic with defining a state (void of course, for example) and making a judgement about it (void of course given or not given, for example) or about something belonging to it (application to the state of void of course, for example), thus making the state a subject/object of consideration?

Geoffrey wrote:
Coley (Clavis Astrologiae Elimata), page 246, end of paragraph II, "...to encourage him to stay, the Moon applyes to a Void of Course."

johannes susato wrote:
Lilly, CA, p. 386:
"[...], finding the the Moon separated from voyd of course, and applying to the opposition of Sun, [...]"
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Void is a state not object or another planet, it is not a fixed point either-it is the planet's own state.
How does a planet apply to its own state ?
It can only BE in that state.
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correction for Modern English

Coley (Clavis Astrologiae Elimata), page 246, end of paragraph II, "...to encourage him to stay because the Moon is currently not Void of Course but would become so before exiting the sign ."




Lilly, CA, p. 386:
"[...], finding that the Moon was voyd of course, and is now applying to the opposition of Sun, [...]"


Edit: As suggested by Johannes
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Last edited by Morpheus on Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horatio wrote:
Correction for Modern English

Coley (Clavis Astrologiae Elimata), page 246, end of paragraph II, "...to encourage him to stay because the Moon is Void of Course."
This "correction" is a little erroneous because Coley's wording "the Moon applyes to a Voyd of Course'" means: the Moon is not yet void of course, but will be, is going to be so, but not before later.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my last post via this debate on April 16th I stated:

Quote:
Lilly a giant Taurean mountain of knowledge as solid as 'the Rock of Gibraltar', a Man of his age being a Piscean asc., in the Piscean age will remain the horary icon more than the Greek Philosophers are to philosophy forever.


Well I do not wish to side track the great discussion but I may have been in error as the online(ebooks) copy of CAII has Lilly with Pisces rising born on May the 11th. This debate is on the first Forum, 'Nativities & General Astrology', found upon the list of Forums page.

From what I'm finding out most of us Do Not know Lilly's true horoscope and if one calculates the horoscope that John Gadbury presents they will see his errors.

And I know all of you serious students in the celestial arts hate to be wrong upon your precious science.

As I thought he was a Pisces asc., as many of you may have considered.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johannes and PD were saying:

Quote:
pankajdubey wrote:
Now suppose, Moon is at 1 degree taurus and Sun at 29 degree taurus.
Is moon VOC or just out of the orb of conjunction of Sun.

Johannes:

If the Moon is still in separation from another planet, she would reach a region in the sign, where she would end separation and not yet be within the moyety of both, hers and the Sun his, orbs, i.e. she would be void of course then, later on.


This is something years ago in reading the confusion passed on by the Modernes, Anthony Louis(then a skeptical Moderne now studying Traditionalism) to be speacific in his first book, had stated evidently what he had gathered from so many other Modernes and misunderstood from pre-1700 writters, that the Moon would connect with the Sun as they were in the same sign.

However, with the Moon a 1 deg. and the Sun at 29 deg., both in taurus, since Luna moves at about 12-15 degrees per day, and Sol averages 57 minutes, besides not being within Al Biruni's orbs that Lilly used, the Sun will be in Gemini long before Luna has a chance to perfect.

The below is a side track discussion but I just need it confirmed.

Please tell me that any planets applying that far away can not perfect as they are out of orb even if the aspect finally catches up and perfects before the more ponderous planet leaves it's sign!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It comes under perfection and denial.
Here is the link for a fuller explanation.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn2.html
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VestaDS



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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi I would also like to add it also depends on how many Planets/asteriods you use...

For example Tuesday 4th June 2013, does the Moon become Void of course after aspecting Jupiter at 25.05 Aries 7.08am BST
Or do you count the Sun Semi square the Moon at 29.06 Aries at 3.06pm BST, or Moon conjunt Bienor at 29.52 Airies at 4.38Pm leaving just 15 mins till the Moon enters Taurus, an interesting dilema.......
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VestaDS wrote:
Hi I would also like to add it also depends on how many Planets/asteriods you use...

For example Tuesday 4th June 2013, does the Moon become Void of course after aspecting Jupiter at 25.05 Aries 7.08am BST
Or do you count the Sun Semi square the Moon at 29.06 Aries at 3.06pm BST, or Moon conjunt Bienor at 29.52 Airies at 4.38Pm leaving just 15 mins till the Moon enters Taurus, an interesting dilema.......

You are right of course, for the space where the Moon or the other planets could be void of course becomes the more narrow, the more planets or asteroids we use.

But there is no problem in my opinion, at least following Lilly and others, with the Moon's becoming void of course the 4th of June: The Moon will not be void of course then.

Immediately after her perfect sextile with Jupiter (at 25.00, there seems to be a difference in the computing of our sofware) the Moon, still in separation from this sextile, is 13 minutes later already in application to the opposition of Saturn in 25.46 Scoropio. The distance between the Moon and Saturn's perfect opposition is 10.43 degrees, the "moiety of both their orbs" being 12+9=21:2= 1030.

Thus the Moon applies, after perfecting the sextile with Jupiter and still in separtaion from him and still in the sign of his position, to the Opposition of Saturn and is not void of course.

Johannes


Last edited by johannes susato on Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what about Venus at 1.25 Cancer at the time of the Moon's sextile to Jupiter?

Before the Moon can perfect her opposition with Saturn, she will perfect her sextile to Venus. And again: still in separation from Jupiter, she will apply to the sextile of Venus as long as she, the Moon, is in her sign of position.

Johannes
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VestaDS



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Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the great lesson. One of the books that I watch Llewellyn's Planetary guide 2013, shows the Moon VOC after the Jupiter aspect.
But they dont tell you everything!!!! and I have other sources of information.....
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johannes susato



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Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VestaDS wrote:
Thanks for the great lesson. One of the books that I watch Llewellyn's Planetary guide 2013, shows the Moon VOC after the Jupiter aspect.
But they dont tell you everything!!!! and I have other sources of information.....

They obviously follow the other branch of teachings, which claims that a star, which does not perfect conjunction or an aspect with another star as long as he (the first star) is within the singn of his position, is void of course.
The consequence is that they have a star in the state of being void of course much more often than Lilly, for example.
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